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Gothic metal - a dying genre?


Artemisia

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As an avid fan of gothic metal, I have wondered about the future of this particular genre. As we know, gothic metal had its heyday in the 90s and early 2000s with bands like Nightwish, Tristania, Within Temptation and Theatre of Tragedy. As a result, the gothic metal sound became synonymous with female fronted bands using operatic or soprano vocals and heavy symphonic elements. As more and more of these bands appeared, it became a cliche and the genre was criticised for its lack of diversity. However, there are plenty of gothic metal bands that never used the operatic/beauty and the beast vocals. The forerunners of the gothic metal genre: My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost, Anathema, Tiamat, Moonspell...all male fronted and definitely a far cry from the female fronted bands that became included with the genre. But I digress. It seems a lot of bands wanted to shirk off the label of "gothic" entirely, as though it were a bad label. I understand the goth and metal subcultures are vastly different, especially concerning music, but this crossover created some beautiful music and amazing bands...what is so bad about being labelled "gothic?" Even on this forum, I have noticed that this particular sub forum is probably the least active of all. Is the gothic metal genre going to die out or become assimilated into other genres, simply because there is a stigma attached to the title?

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I have noticed less of these bands really gaining any kind of headway recently, but that doesn't mean that they're gone. It was a big thing to do for a while that garnered many fans and had crossover appeal, now its time in the sun seems to have passed. This is unfortunate, as while much of the formula described above became pretty banal before long (a novel idea that became a gimmick lacking innovation and purpose), it did bring some great music about for a time, and was yet another outlet for more adventurous bands to explore and tinker with. It is worth noting that these sounds aren't gone, but they seem to have been more casually reintegrated into other metal genres, with one newer band putting gothic metal songs into their otherwise more extreme albums being Triptykon. I think if some innovation were to roll around, it could be revitalized, but as it stands, the public doesn't seem to be watching anymore. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

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I contest your claim to least active subforum with the progressive metal subforum...it's just me in there, for the most part. Then somebody stumbles in, gives a look 'round and sees Mills on the bookshelf, Doritos bags and Vanilla Coke cans at the foot of the couch where I'm drawing, scents the distinct odor of cheese and unwashed socks, hears Into Eternity blasting and slinks away in disgust. It'd be good if NTNR were back because he and I did have a handful of discussions about what really constituted gothic metal. He argued that groups like Leaves' Eyes and Xandria really weren't gothic metal so much as just watered-down symphonic power metal. If I remember correctly he said gothic metal was usually more like doom but more uptempo and maybe with hints of electronica here and there, based on groups like the 69 Eyes and Sisters of Mercy. I wasn't sure, I thought the newer female-fronted groups had a sound of their own, but he did have a point. If you're looking for a band that is female fronted by genuinely sounds gothic, check out Silentium from Finland. I'm not sure the genre's dying, Nightwish, Xandria, Midnattsol, Krypteria, Leaves' Eyes, the various solo projects of those singers, and Within Temptation all seem to be doing fine. Epica are still doing well - I'm curious to see whether their new album is any good although it has a picture of Siddharta Buddha on the front so I'm prepping myself for some uninformed pretentiousness. Then again, that's most of Epica's lyrics these days... anyhow, Delain is one of the few gothic metal groups that I can be arsed about, alongside Edenbridge, Theatre of Tragedy, Slumber, ASP, Amaranthe and After Forever, because they do have some variance to their work and have heavily incorporated other elements - be they from melodeath, prog, doom or industrial. I do think there's a lot to the idea that all gothic metal bands sound a bit samey. I used to be quite well into the genre and even the less popular groups I found - Coronatus, Liquid Sky, Visions of Atlantis, UnSun, Lunatica, Elis all tended to run together. As a result, I suspect a lot of people really can't find much that they think distinctly differs from Evanescence to really catch their attention.

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Iceni ban midi. I think. That most. Gothic metal bands. Either. Change. There sound. Or evolved. Or stray away. For example. Poisonblack's debut. Was gothic. Metal Abd second. Was gothicrock. Then other material. Was more rock driven.
I'm not acquainted with gothic metal, but it seems only natural that a genre will evolve in time. I guess the boundaries of what one could still call 'gothic metal' throughout that evolution differ for each individual, making the genre bigger or not from a personal view
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I'm still wondering as to why the gothic label is so shunned. Bands like Nightwish and Moonspell have publicly denied the label' date=' even though their music has distinctly gothic elements.[/quote'] Maybe for the same reason bands try to reject "-core" labels - a bad association with that word, a feeling that it confines their music or limits their audience, a desire for an increase in perceived legitimacy? Labels tend to stick, and so does the stigma attached to them. I assume that's the reason why, for instance, Pantera buried their first four albums when they decided to wear "normal clothes" and play tough-guy music instead of glam. Back when revisionist history was possible... :D
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People seem to have a tough time deciding what gothic metal is (NTNR included). As the label stands, gothic metal should be metal that is gothic. What would make metal gothic? One school of gothic metal is metal with lots of influence from gothic rock, or a metalized version of gothic rock in some cases. This school is represented by bands like Type O Negative, Moonspell (non-black metal periods), later Sentenced/Poisonblack, mid-late Paradise Lost, mid-late Tiamat, etc... The second variant is the one that seems to be more of the topic of discussion here, which is a sort of hybrid of where doom/death metal had evolved to by the mid 90's, with its more elegant and refined feel, classical/symphonic influences, and usually operatic female vocals to coincide with the classical sounds on display. This is metal that uses gothic lyrics, imagery, and creates a gothic atmosphere without using many elements borrowed directly from gothic rock, but the influence is certainly there. Now, what this does not mean is that every "metal band" with a clean female vocalist is gothic metal, the music is what makes that determination, and I think that is where most get hung up. Bands like Nightwish and After Forever are definitely power metal bands, as that is what the instrumentation is based in, and there isn't really anything gothic about their atmosphere or the feeling of the music they create. There is also a great deal of confusion because many bands have changed their sound a number of times and have jumped the gothic metal line, one of the worst offenders to muddle this for everyone is Paradise Lost. Their second album is named Gothic, but is a doom/death metal album. However, that album would introduce the template upon which one school of gothic metal was formed, with the female vocal accompaniments and less dirty/more exquisite feel of the music setting the stage for bands like Theatre of Tragedy and Tristania. To add to this confusion, they would later integrate more and more gothic rock techniques into a metal base, and were one of the frontrunners of the other side of gothic metal with albums like Draconian Times, after which they would become gothic rock entirely (until their self titled album). Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

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  • 2 weeks later...

Isn't it fitting that the gothic genre is dying a slow and morbid death? I'm just kidding. As a genre of metal it's one I only know a few bands from Like Type O Negative, My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost, Nightwish and so on but it seems that a band labelled as gothic metal usually fits somewhat into the doom, black/death or power metal genres (not always) or has symphonic/melodic elements / beauty and the beast vocals. It strikes me as strange because Gothic Rock tends to be more closely associated with post punk and industrial music. I do like 'Gothic Metal' even if it seems like a confusing non-specific genre.

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  • 3 years later...

Gothic Metal should be metal that is, in essence, gothic. It should evoke imagery of gothic architecture, literature, atmospheres, and the like. Goth rock influences need not apply because most goth rock generally fails to offer anything inherently gothic, save only for dark melancholy. Simply said, the cannibalization of the genre is the issue driving the genre to its grave. 

I believe the genre suffered immensely when it became a label for all things trendy and without substance. Between female-fronted or beauty-meets-beast, symphonic doom-pop and slightly heavier versions of The Sisters of Mercy or Type O Negative clones, the term 'Gothic metal' will now forever conjure up imagery of the aforementioned whether or not it actually provides anything truly gothic or worthwhile.   

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22 hours ago, Vampyrique said:

Gothic Metal should be metal that is, in essence, gothic. It should evoke imagery of gothic architecture, literature, atmospheres, and the like. Goth rock influences need not apply because most goth rock generally fails to offer anything inherently gothic, save only for dark melancholy. Simply said, the cannibalization of the genre is the issue driving the genre to its grave. 

I believe the genre suffered immensely when it became a label for all things trendy and without substance. Between female-fronted or beauty-meets-beast, symphonic doom-pop and slightly heavier versions of The Sisters of Mercy or Type O Negative clones, the term 'Gothic metal' will now forever conjure up imagery of the aforementioned whether or not it actually provides anything truly gothic or worthwhile.   

Well said.

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On 10/08/2017 at 0:07 PM, BlutAusNerd said:

Well said.

 

On 09/08/2017 at 1:30 PM, Vampyrique said:

Gothic Metal should be metal that is, in essence, gothic. It should evoke imagery of gothic architecture, literature, atmospheres, and the like. Goth rock influences need not apply because most goth rock generally fails to offer anything inherently gothic, save only for dark melancholy. Simply said, the cannibalization of the genre is the issue driving the genre to its grave. 

I believe the genre suffered immensely when it became a label for all things trendy and without substance. Between female-fronted or beauty-meets-beast, symphonic doom-pop and slightly heavier versions of The Sisters of Mercy or Type O Negative clones, the term 'Gothic metal' will now forever conjure up imagery of the aforementioned whether or not it actually provides anything truly gothic or worthwhile.   

And because of this a lot of bands tried to distance themselves from the gothic metal label - it became a dirty term for a while there. I can't recall a genre that had so many people pile on so quickly then bail just as quickly  - except for maybe hair/glam metal.

In c1997 gothic metal was everywhere, with bands like Rotting Christ and Septic Flesh even having a dabble. By 2002 it was a different story.

As you say, several gothy rock bands like To/Die/For, Charon and Sentenced became labeled as gothic metal, and they were obviously vastly different to early Theatre of Tragedy etc. 

Personally I love both streams and have always proudly said so. So many great bands and albums.

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I just wrote a blog about goth last night. So I just want to share some thought about on this forum, too. 

In general every genre in rock and metal goes through it's ups and downs...when it first appears most shun it for being too weird ( the ones who get into it at that very early stage usually give up very quickly or stick at it for decades to come), then more become curious and begin to love it for it's novelty, fresh appeal, "new strong blood" feeling, or plain and simple shock effect ( those who get into it for the latter tend to dissappear very quickly too) and then comes a low period with a few "renaissances"...the people who are into it then are into it because they really like and feel connected to the specific musical genre..and that is what really counts!!!!

I do not know why, but many people do have a tendency to shun their past...those who have moved to other pastures will look down on a talk bad about their goth, punk, skin, metal days etc...but never really give an answer to why other than "I grew up" or "I evolved"...well, congratulations but before praising and celebrating your new and amazing self, then remember that your past made you who you are today! Personally I hate when bands shun their past: so you like bashing your former goth metal self, but I bet you loved the attention and free beers that you got when you were pale as a vampire back when the 90's were old and the millenium was still all fresh and new!!! Bands can play what ever genre they like, but it's when they start bashing their roots that I stop listening to them!

I will always love goth myself from gothic architecture and litterature to goth rock/metal...it might deem me completely unfashionable, but goth has never been about following the trend. And yes, I can imagine that it must feel a bit sore when the amount of gigs you get to play seem to only decrease and when your following dwindles from zillions to a small but dedicated crowd...but I will always have much more respect to those who stick by their guns than those who are ashame and bitch about their pass...so fuck you, Pantera!!!!!!!

I need to buy some new CD's...last time I had to get hold of some Dio before going totally insane (and as you can tell, I have not lost it completely yet)... and now I want some goth metal. Can anyone give me a list of the more recent and unknown bands who are well worth listening to?

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I've never, by experience, understood how someone can simply go through a phase only to later reject it but I'm not a capricious person. If I like something, I genuinely like it and likely always will. 

I suspect it stems from a lack of self-knowledge or identity. Lacking in direction, trying new things to see what stays.

I've also observed that sometimes lonely people want to fit in with others so badly that they will try to fit in even if the attempt is contrived. Sometimes a person may only be able to measure their self worth by how others perceive them within a given social circle or community. 

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2 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I just wrote a blog about goth last night. So I just want to share some thought about on this forum, too. 

In general every genre in rock and metal goes through it's ups and downs...when it first appears most shun it for being too weird ( the ones who get into it at that very early stage usually give up very quickly or stick at it for decades to come), then more become curious and begin to love it for it's novelty, fresh appeal, "new strong blood" feeling, or plain and simple shock effect ( those who get into it for the latter tend to dissappear very quickly too) and then comes a low period with a few "renaissances"...the people who are into it then are into it because they really like and feel connected to the specific musical genre..and that is what really counts!!!!

I do not know why, but many people do have a tendency to shun their past...those who have moved to other pastures will look down on a talk bad about their goth, punk, skin, metal days etc...but never really give an answer to why other than "I grew up" or "I evolved"...well, congratulations but before praising and celebrating your new and amazing self, then remember that your past made you who you are today! Personally I hate when bands shun their past: so you like bashing your former goth metal self, but I bet you loved the attention and free beers that you got when you were pale as a vampire back when the 90's were old and the millenium was still all fresh and new!!! Bands can play what ever genre they like, but it's when they start bashing their roots that I stop listening to them!

I will always love goth myself from gothic architecture and litterature to goth rock/metal...it might deem me completely unfashionable, but goth has never been about following the trend. And yes, I can imagine that it must feel a bit sore when the amount of gigs you get to play seem to only decrease and when your following dwindles from zillions to a small but dedicated crowd...but I will always have much more respect to those who stick by their guns than those who are ashame and bitch about their pass...so fuck you, Pantera!!!!!!!

I need to buy some new CD's...last time I had to get hold of some Dio before going totally insane (and as you can tell, I have not lost it completely yet)... and now I want some goth metal. Can anyone give me a list of the more recent and unknown bands who are well worth listening to?

I'm not the world's biggest gothic metal fan, but I do really enjoy some of it. I can't think of many newer bands doing it, but one more recent band that I was impressed with was The Vision Bleak, they're worth checking out for sure.

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1 hour ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I'm not the world's biggest gothic metal fan, but I do really enjoy some of it. I can't think of many newer bands doing it, but one more recent band that I was impressed with was The Vision Bleak, they're worth checking out for sure.

I'll second that for sure. I have their first three albums and they're generally very good. Schwardorf's previous band Empyrium were amazing, so there's some good lineage there. 

3 hours ago, Vampyrique said:

I've never, by experience, understood how someone can simply go through a phase only to later reject it but I'm not a capricious person. If I like something, I genuinely like it and likely always will. 

I suspect it stems from a lack of self-knowledge or identity. Lacking in direction, trying new things to see what stays.

I've also observed that sometimes lonely people want to fit in with others so badly that they will try to fit in even if the attempt is contrived. Sometimes a person may only be able to measure their self worth by how others perceive them within a given social circle or community. 

This is all true. Trends come and go, especially in music. In fact, I think modern music, both metal and non-metal, shows even more than clothing how fashions move and shift. Like you say, I'm one of those guys who has a pretty good idea of what I like and it's funny to see things fall in and out of favour while I still sit here in my (metaphorical) frilly white vampire shirt.  

I've said it before, but being a gothic metal/doom/dark (what have you) fan living through the 90s and 00s, that huge shift that my favourite bands like Paradise Lost, Amorphis, Moonspell, My Dying Bride, Theatre of Tragedy etc all made, going from heavily atmospheric 'metal' to a more rock and even electronic vibe, then back to metal again in the mid 2000s (with the exception of Theatre of Tragedy) really bewildered me.

I can certainly understand a band's desire to try new things, but gosh they really did follow the same path there for a while. I don't include Anathema in this because I think it's clear that they really were interested in changing and staying changed, exploring new directions. But by the end of the 90s they were all jumping the gothic(y) ship. 

 

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4 hours ago, Requiem said:

I'll second that for sure. I have their first three albums and they're generally very good. Schwardorf's previous band Empyrium were amazing, so there's some good lineage there. 

This is all true. Trends come and go, especially in music. In fact, I think modern music, both metal and non-metal, shows even more than clothing how fashions move and shift. Like you say, I'm one of those guys who has a pretty good idea of what I like and it's funny to see things fall in and out of favour while I still sit here in my (metaphorical) frilly white vampire shirt.  

I've said it before, but being a gothic metal/doom/dark (what have you) fan living through the 90s and 00s, that huge shift that my favourite bands like Paradise Lost, Amorphis, Moonspell, My Dying Bride, Theatre of Tragedy etc all made, going from heavily atmospheric 'metal' to a more rock and even electronic vibe, then back to metal again in the mid 2000s (with the exception of Theatre of Tragedy) really bewildered me.

I can certainly understand a band's desire to try new things, but gosh they really did follow the same path there for a while. I don't include Anathema in this because I think it's clear that they really were interested in changing and staying changed, exploring new directions. But by the end of the 90s they were all jumping the gothic(y) ship. 

 

I suspect this may differ between bands and music fans. Fans are consumers of content whereas bands are also creators. Can you really create the same sort of album a dozen times and still find it fulfilling or cathartic? Wouldn't a catharsis gained through writing and releasing an album push you forward? I can also imagine too that when death metal exploded, some bands wanted to distance themselves from all of the clones that were emerging and, in the process, bands took influence from other like-minded bands who were doing something 'exciting' or 'challenging'. 

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9 hours ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I'm not the world's biggest gothic metal fan, but I do really enjoy some of it. I can't think of many newer bands doing it, but one more recent band that I was impressed with was The Vision Bleak, they're worth checking out for sure.

Thank you, I will check them out :)

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