Mainstream Metal; Yes or No?

[Black Iron Priest]

This is a discussion about mainstream metal. I'm not talking about metal bands that are mainstream like Avenged Sevenfold and Slipknot; I mean if Metal as a whole were mainstream. What if Raining Blood was played over the morning announcements in school? What if Iron Maiden played the halftime show at the Superbowl? What if Peace Sells was the music that played at the beginning of whatever news channel you watch? That's what I mean. Would you like for Metal to be mainstream? Again, I don't mean artists selling out; I mean if hip hop and pop music never got big and Rock and Metal kept growing and stayed popular. Would you want Metal to be mainstream, or would you want it to stay underground? On one hand, you wouldn't have all the garbage music we have today, but on the other hand, Metal wouldn't be special. With Metal being so unknown by the populace, we can think of ourselves as unique, and I don't mean this to sound pretentious, but we really are. With all those sports fans there's one guy who's crazy about badminton, so what? With everyone that like cars being into sports cars, there's the few that prefer trucks, so what? And for everyone that wants to have the hottest shoes, there are some who would rather wear boots, again so what? Metal on the other hand is different, when most people listen to Katy Perry and whoever the big rapper is right now, there are those who listen to Metal, and that is different. As Metal fans, we can have deep and intellectual conversations about music with each other. Pop fans can only go so far when conversing about music, and usually it's just, "The chorus is so catchy." I read reviews about Metal albums and I am so impressed with what I read. The syntax, the above average grammar, the way the music is actually talked about, it's all so great. If Metal were mainstream, sure you could still write good reviews, but with it being so common would it mean anything, or would it just be another review? Reviews though, is only a very small portion of the Metal community that I used for an example. Another example is this forum, would it still be here if Metal were mainstream? I would imagine Metal discussion forums would still exist, but we probably wouldn't see as many, and those that did exist wouldn't be as special. Think about this; how many times per day can you have a good and thoughtful discussion about the transition from Bruce Dickinson to Blaze Bayley in Iron Maiden's career; how many people do you meet each day that can give their opinion on that topic? To add to that thought, have many of you would actually like to have that conversation, or any Metal related conversation for that matter? I love talking about Music with others and getting really deep into it, past the "I like it" part. If Metal were mainstream, would we still have those conversations? When you're with others do you ever say, "I saw a car today?" If Metal were popular, would deep (or any) conversations about it be worth having? Most of us hate or strongly dislike the garbage shoved on us everyday, but would you give all this up to have Metal replace that garbage? If Miley Cyrus was frowned upon and wasn't paid thousands of dollar for being an ass, would it be worth possibly losing all this? So back to the question, would you like to see Metal be mainstream, have it stay where it is, or somewhere in between, (or maybe even more underground)? Where would you like for Metal's place in society to be; please share your thoughts on this topic too.

[Atrocity]

Never. Metal could never be "background" music played in commercials or before the evening news. There is a very good reason why metal isn't popular and we all know it: not everyone is capable to handle it. To understand it. And to love how deep and complex it is. And we all love it that way. I don't believe it would be the same music if it were popular, I think it would have taken a whole new direction. Let's be honest, pop is a very simple genre and that's one of the reasons of it's popularity: you don't have to think while listening to it. And that is not always a bad thing. It's relaxing. I'm not saying you have to be super smart to listen to metal, I'm just saying metal offers you something to think about, lyrically and musically, while pop usually doesn't. So I'm afraid "popular metal" would be a much simpler thing and very different from what it is now, because, as we see, they way it is didn't make it popular And let's be honest, no matter how much me love it, we must admit, if you want to dance you won't put Iron Maiden on, you'll put Gaga you can't properly dance to metal p.s. I'm sorry if I'm not making any sense and if I have a lot of errors but I'm sooo tired at this moment

[FatherAlabaster]

Lots of good discussion on a similar topic here: http://metalforum.com/general-chat/3264-do-you-think-metal-could-ever-become-massively-popular-again.html And some discussion in other threads, throughout. Personally, I think the question is an oversimplification. "Metal" is a wide umbrella; it shades into rock and pop (and even hip-hop). I don't care for discussions about where people draw the dividing lines, because everyone puts them in different places, and they're generally uninformative, but those discussions are ubiquitous here and on other forums if they do anything for you. There's more to those other genres than you give them credit for, not least in performance and production; and I've often found metal music criticism to be guilty of exactly the flaws you point out elsewhere. I think that a lot of more obscure stuff is destined for niche markets at best - it takes a lot to be able to wade through hours and hours of abrasive garbage in the hope of finding something meaningful. And, near the top end of a reeling yet bloated industry, you have the same forces toward marketable conformity regardless of whether a band is "pop", "rock", "metal" or whatever. I think the difference between your average mainstream metalhead and a fan of pop music is in the degree to which they've invested their social identity in appearing to care about music. Underneath the battle jacket, you're just as likely as not to find a shallow appreciation for sonics and a desire to seem to be a certain kind of person; to "look the part". Witness all of the threads people have started here complaining about "posers" and "scene kids". I think of a lot of metal as being hard music for soft people; and I know just as many outsiders who regard the entire metal community as juvenile and shallow, as I do committed metal listeners who (just as mistakenly) think there's less under the surface of other scenes. And don't forget that more extreme bands seem to have a greater chance of rising farther in some smaller countries that support the arts more than the USA. Metal has been more appreciated in some places, and during some time periods, than in others. The basic point you keep coming back to is that if more people liked metal, metal fans would somehow be in danger of becoming less special. I think that's a silly concern that has more to do with self-identity than it does with music, and I say that not to poke fun at you, so much as because I think I kind of remember being there when I was younger. But for the sake of argument: no, I don't think that would be the case at all. More people investing the time and energy that a lot of metal requires could only benefit all of us: more ideas, more viewpoints, more great music. Not that there isn't already more than anyone could possibly hope to hear.

[Iceni]

There's a problem with this hypothetical, and that's assuming that most people will ever be interested with music on the same level as music nerds - and that artists will never get complacent. Most people aren't looking for depth in their music and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I don't think most people object to classical, per se, but they just don't find it interesting because they don't understand what makes it good. If everyone was a music nerd (*cough* FA *cough*) then maybe metal would get its time in the sun, but I can't imagine it'd be a free ride. In the meantime, popularity frequently makes artists complacent in an attempt to make the most efficient return on investment. Usually that attempt results in a lazy effort that sonically resembles their previous oeuvre but doesn't stand up to it technically or with regards to mood. It's not entirely impossible for bands to work hard for a lot of their career, but to posit a hypothetical where that kind of dedication is the norm is to assume that there'd be a market for it.

[Black Iron Priest]

And let's be honest, no matter how much me love it, we must admit, if you want to dance you won't put Iron Maiden on, you'll put Gaga you can't properly dance to metal

While I will not disagree with you I must say, I have danced to metal before. Okay, maybe I wasn't "dancing" but I wasn't exactly standing still either. One day when my parents were gone I turned my stereo up all the way and played Kreator and I hopped while spinning in circles. Metal can make me move, more than just a head-bang, and while it may not be dancing, while I look like I'm having a seizure, it makes me move.

There's more to those other genres than you give them credit for, not least in performance and production; and I've often found metal music criticism to be guilty of exactly the flaws you point out elsewhere.

I do agree with this; if I sounded like I was bashing popular music I didn't mean to. To tell the truth, I have found certain hip hop and even pop songs that I like. And Metal does have some of the same flaws associated with popular music. Sometimes pop music is said to have cheesy repetitive lyrics. Lets take a look at Iron Maiden, perhaps the most revered band in all of metal: "A brave new world, in a brave new world. A brave new world, in a brave new world. A brave new world, in a brave new world. A brave new world, in a brave new world." So I do agree that Metal shares some of the flaws given to to pop music.

The basic point you keep coming back to is that if more people liked metal, metal fans would somehow be in danger of becoming less special. I think that's a silly concern that has more to do with self-identity than it does with music, and I say that not to poke fun at you, so much as because I think I kind of remember being there when I was younger. But for the sake of argument: no, I don't think that would be the case at all. More people investing the time and energy that a lot of metal requires could only benefit all of us: more ideas, more viewpoints, more great music. Not that there isn't already more than anyone could possibly hope to hear.

This is a good valid point. And please understand me when I say that I do not mean to sound pretentious. I would not care about being "less special." Really, I don't consider myself special just for listening to metal. Special is just a term that I used, a different word would have been a better fit, but for the time being, special is all I could think of. I'm not concerned about metal fans being less special, it was just a idea to present a counter argument in support of keeping metal not as popular. To add to what you said, we would have more ideas and musicians, of course, but back to my point, it wouldn't be as "unique." Yes of course each band might be unique compared to other bands, metal as a whole might not be as unique. Again, I don't mean to sound pretentious, but I'm just arguing that if more people did it, then it really wouldn't be as unique. If one hundred random music acts are taken, how many of them are metal bands? Theoretically all of them could be, but realistically, less than half is likely to be metal. If metal were popular, then closer to all would be metal, so you wouldn't be as excited to see one or more of those bands being metal. (I think my previous sentence better explains what I meant be "special".) But on top of all of this, there would still be elitists/enthusiasts. Hip Hop is much more widespread in the United States than Metal, but there are still Hip Hop artists (obviously) so those artists are the enthusiasts of Hip Hop and they might have "deep and intellectual" conversations about Hip Hop amongst themselves. Suppose metal were big, there are still going to be enthusiasts as I explained, so you can still have those conversations. Most imporantly, I want people to understand that I didn't mean to sound pretentious by this post. I couldn't think of a better term than special. But I certainly don't give any thoughts into "being special."

[FatherAlabaster]

It's not entirely impossible for bands to work hard for a lot of their career' date=' but to posit a hypothetical where that kind of dedication is the norm is to assume that there'd be a market for it.[/quote'] That's a good point; market forces have even sunk their ugly claws into the rocks I usually hide under. The truth is that at any level, even as a complete amateur, being a musician takes time, focus, dedication, and money. When your money is coming from the table scraps that you've been tossed by a larger label, and the pressure is on you to offer up a consistently palatable product that will please them and move units, market forces are really working against innovation, especially when you've spent years or decades eschewing any other career, and working odd jobs so you can spend the necessary time on music. Some bands have been very successful, but I think I'd have a hard time being productive in that kind of situation. I don't think that's a discussion so much about the popularity of metal, as it is the impact of a certain business model. The good thing is, that's been changing!

[Black Iron Priest]

And let's be honest, no matter how much me love it, we must admit, if you want to dance you won't put Iron Maiden on, you'll put Gaga you can't properly dance to metal

Nonsenese, this guy can do it. Now This Dude Can Dance! Best Dancer Ever Maybe? AMAZING!!! vs. Pain Killer - Judas Priest by VJ snoopsagan | YouTube Doubler | Mashup Helper (Turn the volume on the first "dancing" video off.

[Nemo Of Many Colours]

Well I read only OP's post, but I don't have problem with anything mainstream as far as it's not a way to brainwash people, and of course includes good quality music. Having said that, the last time a mainstream music movement was good, was back in 80's. Bands back then did whatever the fuck they wanted, without giving a shit what would be "apropriate" for little kids, religion groups and other human made up rules that tell people how to live. So yeah, they dressed like chicks, with make-up and long hair, in pink/crimson/red colours, singing about sex drugs and rockn'roll. It started from literally 4 bands, and became a mainstream fashion. The music was actually quality music (some of it at least), not some noise made up shit from a laptop, and the lyrics had a meaning. Nowdays the mainstream "musicians" are nothing more than controlled robots for the only purpose of $$. So to answer: No I don't believe metal will ever be mainstream again. At least not in the near future. An example to what I said before about quality: Number 1 "commercial" song year 1983: Cum on feel the noize. Number 1 "commercial" song year 2013: gangnam style. ...

[Iceni]

Having said that' date=' the last time a mainstream music movement was good, was back in 80's. Bands back then did whatever the fuck they wanted, without giving a shit what would be "apropriate" for little kids, religion groups and other human made up rules that tell people how to live.[/quote'] Sex and drugs are fairly popular themes for pop artists today. In addition...Nicki Minaj, Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, The Black Eyed Peas, Chris Brown, Lil' Wayne and Miley Cyrus could not give a rat's ass about what's appropriate for children. I haven't heard the Southern Baptist Convention plugging the new Ke$ha single either. I'm just going to leave this here...

[FatherAlabaster]

Well I read only OP's post

Try reading the rest of them.

I'm just going to leave this here...

You beat me to it.

[Iceni]

You beat me to it.

There's still time for you to be your enjoyably blunt self.

[Black Iron Priest]

Wait! Does that mean lyrics today have meaning? Maybe I should spend the rest of the night listening to Lil Wayne while rethinking my life.

[Iceni]

You don't want to sell me death sticks.

Maybe I should spend the rest of the night listening to Lil Wayne while rethinking my life.

You want to go home and rethink your life.

[Black Iron Priest]

You want to go home and rethink your life.

I want to go home and rethink my life.

[FatherAlabaster]

Holy shit, the Jedi Mind Trick works!

There's still time for you to be your enjoyably blunt self.

Ok, how about this: News Flash! Opinionated person with dubious command of English joins metal discussion forum, admits little desire to engage in meaningful discussion, posts ignorant blanket statements that betray lack of interest in or knowledge of much metal music! Enraged metalheads leap to respond! Here's Bob with the weather.

[Iceni]

Ok' date=' how about this: News Flash! Opinionated person with dubious command of English joins metal discussion forum, admits little desire to engage in meaningful discussion, posts ignorant blanket statements that betray lack of interest in or knowledge of much metal music! Enraged metalheads leap to respond! Here's Bob with the weather.[/quote'] Well, Ted, we're detecting a low-pressure area and high winds mainly generated by ignorant airbags and polemical blowhards. It's...it's a sh*tstorm, Ted.

[deathstorm]

Ted and bob. This. Larry Reported live from. Miami. The shitstrom has made landfall. There is shit flying every where with wind gusts of 200 mph. Holy shit. Back to you guys. Lol

[Atrocity]

Metal can also have lyrics that are repetitive and without any sense. How many bands have those "satan this, satan that" lyrics that have no dept. You can find meaningful lyrics in pop music. They won't be in the hit song, but they will be on the album. Katy Perry for example, has hit song like I kissed a girl, but on the album you can find song with lyrics that talk about life problems, drogs (etc. Maybe the difference is that metal speaks about politics, religion, war and similar things more then pop does. Pop artist sing about broken hearts and happy relationships. Mostly. Not always. Musically, there is shit in pop and there is shit in metal. Yesterday I spent 3 hours on youtube listening to (to me) new bands, I found 3 that were good. Also, it depends of the metal genre. Honestly, if I was in a bar in the morning drinking my first coffee, Gorgorth would be the last thing I would want to listen to, while something more melodic, some heavy, goth even, that could do. For a while I tough I was the only idiot that dances to metal Sure you can dance to it, but... How should I say, it's not "expected" of you. If you go to a metal concert you want shake your booty, you'll headbang. If you go to a pop concert, nobody will headbang. So if metal became mainstream, so would headbanging, because it's the dance that "goes with it". Can you imagine a disco where everybody is standing in lines and flipping their hair around?

[White and Sticky]

Can you imagine a disco where everybody is standing in lines and flipping their hair around?

no but that would be AWESOME!! Actually mean and my friends once went to the dance our school put on and we were headbangin to Katy Perry and Macklemore. Our school asked the students to submit songs and we all submitted a bunch of metal stuff but they didn't play it

[Atrocity]

no but that would be AWESOME!! Actually mean and my friends once went to the dance our school put on and we were headbangin to Katy Perry and Macklemore. Our school asked the students to submit songs and we all submitted a bunch of metal stuff but they didn't play it

I can't really agree, sorry. I wouldn't mind other changes that would come with mainstream metal, like fashion, but it would be a really sad world if the best "dance" out there would be headbanging. That's not even dancing, that's standing still and moving your head around.

[White and Sticky]

I can't really agree' date=' sorry. I wouldn't mind other changes that would come with mainstream metal, like fashion, but it would be a really sad world if the best "dance" out there would be headbanging. That's not even dancing, that's standing still and moving your head around.[/quote'] thats why you need to learn to crabwalk to, that way you can be dancing.

[Iceni]

I can't really agree' date=' sorry. I wouldn't mind other changes that would come with mainstream metal, like fashion, but it would be a really sad world if the best "dance" out there would be headbanging. That's not even dancing, that's standing still and moving your head around.[/quote'] Put your back into it! Comme ca. ...actually I have to agree. Metal's not really dancing music, unless you count jig-time folk metal...to which I have actually performed Scottish dance steps. A friend of mine once said she did something similar at a Tyr gig.

[Atrocity]

Hahah yea Iceni I should Folk metal is perfect for dancing! I totally forgot about that it should be played at weddings more often

[White and Sticky]

What is Folk Metal?

[Iceni]

What is Folk Metal?

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