Who was baptized?

[AlSymerz]

1 hour ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

Now me I like a debate but religion is a dull topic so I’m out

 

Hehe.

<insert ugly comment here>

[Dead1]

34 minutes ago, RelentlessOblivion said:

when Jesus, the focal point of that religion, would best be described as progressive left. 

 

I would agree on that, however a few historical comments regarding to the nature of Jesus:

Literally the real Jesus is an unknown (my own take is he was a Jewish activist or amalgamation of several Jewish activists , not magic son of an invisible man).

Modern Christianity itself is the creation of Paul who never physically met Jesus  and started his career as a zealot Christian hunter years after Jesus's supposed death ( he has a vision of Jesus 4-7 years after Jesus' death) . Unlike the original Christians who viewed themselves as purely Jews and not open to non-Jews, Paul opens up the faith to virtually anyone - here's the progressive ideals of inclusivity (though obviously with women as 2nd class citizens and certainly no LGBTIQ allowed!).

Paul effectively creates Christianity - remember Jesus always promotes adhere to Jewish law and scripture.  Paul makes it about Jesus.

 

Paul is credited with writing over half the New Testament (though scholars think maybe only 7 might be authentic).  The other thing is many of the New Testament gospels and letters have been proven to be historically unreliable and their authorship unknown. 

The first Gospels are written 30-35 years after the death of Jesus (and about the time Paul himself is killed).  The main ones are also very similar to the point they may have been authored by the same person.

Finally the first compiled version of the New Testament itself came to existence nearly 200 years after Jesus' death. 

 

So what we know about Jesus comes from accounts written 30+ years after he died and usually by people who never met him!

 

 

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

Shitty people have been using religion as a shield to both enable and hide their shitty deeds for centuries. 

 

On 1/22/2022 at 6:10 PM, KillaKukumba said:

I don't see religion as a problem, it's the people who are the problem.

But what is religion, or any organization for that matter, other than a group of people? Religions do exist as abstract concepts, but these concepts have been created by people. In any practical sense there is no way to separate any religion from the people who created, represent, enforce and believe in it. If a religion, say Christianity, is based on a document then that document was written by people, has been interpreted by people. Religion is represented and perpetuated by leaders and clergy and followers who are people, and history tells us that shitty people have also been subverting religion as an excuse for their own shitty purposes for thousands of years. So of course the problem is people! That's the whole point of what we're saying, religion is nothing more than a bunch of bullshit that has been made up by people.

[RelentlessOblivion]

The same can be said for all those religious texts, which kind of proves my point. People can believe what they like, however building and institution around those beliefs and convincing others to follow you through manipulation, coercion, or threats of violence is not a positive thing. Religion is far from the only institution which does this, but it is the one which has written the playbook for others to follow.

[AlSymerz]

12 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

But what is religion, or any organization for that matter, other than a group of people?

My point was you don't need religion to be a shit, you only need to be a person. There are plenty of non religious shits too.

 

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

2 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

My point was you don't need religion to be a shit, you only need to be a person. There are plenty of non religious shits too.

That was your point? Alright, but doesn't that go without saying? I haven't seen anyone here on this thread claiming or even implying that only religious people can be shits or that all/most religious people are shits. In fact I'm sure there are millions of generally good decent people who are believers or consider themselves in some way religious. My problem is really not so much with the indoctrinated, but rather I have issue with the indoctrinators, and the institutions themselves. 

[AlSymerz]

It was a month ago and that was one sentence in what might have been three paragraphs. I imagine I was simply making a statement from my perspective at that particular time, not selectively trying to imply or claim anything of anyone. No doubt it was something as simple as I don't see religion in the same light as others and that others blame religion for a lot more than I do. I doubt I was even trying to suggest anyone else was wrong in having thoughts that differ to mine.

[GoatmasterGeneral]

No worries Vic, I wasn't trying to start any shit with you so we can leave that subject there and let it rest. 

 

So how'd your 56 bags of cement project come out last week? You had a mixer, right? You didn't just mix it up by hand one bag at a time in a wheelbarrow did you?

I've got half a skid of leftover bags of cement out in the yard because the mason over-ordered from when we jacked up the foundation and put it on concrete piers last year. They're all hard as a rock now after all that stupid rain we had last summer so looks like I'll be paying for them twice. Paid $6 a bag when we originally bought them, and now at some point I'm probably gonna have to pay about the same or maybe more to dump them. 

[AlSymerz]

Concrete dust is shitty stuff. I've got a mate who was a concrete batcher for 20 years, I don't know how the hell he put up with it that shit day in and day out. It didn't end up being quite that much but yeah we had a petrol driven mixer and we got it down in a few hours. Thankfully it didn't need to be perfectly level or as flat as an ice skating rink so it wasn't.

I've got a few bags left here too, because they were only $6 I'm not worried about storing them until I find another job for them, but they will be stored in a dry place

 

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 2/21/2022 at 12:47 AM, Dead1 said:

Not saying all Christians are bad.  Most are just people who are all various shades of grey.  I specifically said "organised religion."
 

Religious writings are just one part of any religion.  There's things like practices, rituals, and tacit unwritten understandings.  Eg there's nothing in the Bible about Christmas trees or incorporating pagan festivals like Easter but hey there an actual part of Christianity.  

And even if you just look at  writings such as the bible, it is completely against women and LGBTIQ+.   Homosexuality is explicitly banned in the bible and there's so many references to women being submissive.

Koran (and related Haddith's) are even worse when it comes to gender rights.

Christianity/Islam etc might have been a good way of regulating society up to 1200s but we have increasingly figured out their limitations and destroyed many of the key tenants of these books.

Both of these religions have been used as justification or have been primary reason behind much human barbarity and cruelty up to and including the modern era.

Dead thanks for the measured response. In fact it's all been in good spirits. I want to keep that up.  To be a Christian was never an easy choice. Carrying ones cross is mentioned a few times in new testament as it was a reality for the early Christians.its true the Christian rules do seem rather dated now but back then they were rather progressive. All were equal before God. The Romans did not like this at all.  better treatment of children as for Romans infanticide was e just the done thing.after  few years they'd decide if the child would be adopted into the family or abandoned. The early church was against this and they'd take in the ones who weren't smothered by daddy or eaten by wolves. 

So I think anybody should have freedom of choice  of God/sky fairy😂 or believing in none at all or sitting on the fence should be everyone's right. Also we should all be at peace with each other. So there's no excuse to do terrible deeds because they have a different god and they look different. 

 

 

[Dead1]

6 minutes ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

better treatment of children as for Romans infanticide was e just the done thing.after  few years they'd decide if the child would be adopted into the family or abandoned.

 

 

Though in reality there was no better treatment of children up to the 1930s.

Christians murdered children including their own as much as anyone else.  Indeed deformed/handicapped children were often left for "the elves " ( ie abandoned).

Note humanity was also largely subsistent so you couldn't afford to keep unproductive mouths around.

But healthy children were also abandoned or sold or enslaved.

Europe only started implementing anti-child exploitation laws from 1820s whilst US only did so in an effective kind of way in 1930s!

 

Again the Christian churches didn't really care for rights of children (though sects like Quakers did).  Churches still don't care much about child exploitation in 3rd world either.

[AlSymerz]

22 minutes ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

 

So there's no excuse to do terrible deeds because they have a different god and they look different.

Ok no terrible deeds, but have you seen some of the new millennials and what they leave home looking like, we have to be allowed to at least laugh at them

[GoatmasterGeneral]

57 minutes ago, KillaKukumba said:

Ok no terrible deeds, but have you seen some of the new millennials and what they leave home looking like, we have to be allowed to at least laugh at them

Millennials are in their late 20's, 30's and even their early 40's now. You must mean the Zoomers, they're the new millennials.

 

1 hour ago, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

I think anybody should have freedom of choice of God/sky fairy😂 or believing in none at all or sitting on the fence should be everyone's right. Also we should all be at peace with each other. So there's no excuse to do terrible deeds because they have a different god and they look different. 

Not only should you have freedom of choice my sweets gobbling friend, you do have freedom of choice. Of course it's yours along with everyone else's right to think and believe whatever they want, that goes without saying afaic. But I don't think anyone's right to believe is the issue here.

What I can't understand is how could it possibly be that here in the digital age of the 21st century there are still so many otherwise reasonably intelligent and seemingly normal sane adults who choose to believe in ancient myths, deities and superstitions, aka god/religion? Now that science has explained away so much of what was not understood 2,000 or even 1,000 or even 500 years ago and we know that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth for instance, what is the rationale behind modern day people continuing to believe in a magical, supernatural, omnicient creator who exists completely outside of the constraints of space and time and the laws of physics?

Most of us would probably laugh at someone who claimed they seriously belived in Santa and his elves, or the Easter Bunny, or the tooth fairy, or flying pigs, or the flying spaghetti monster, or Zeus & Apollo, or Odin & Thor, or primitive natives in loin cloths and grass skirts doing rain dances or sacrificing virgins to the volcano or something like that. Yet no one bats an eye or thinks it's nuts or at all unusual if someone says they believe in a sky fairy or heaven & hell, or angels, or spirits, or demons, or satan, or the father, the son, and the holy ghost or any of that nonsense. Even though none of these things would seem to make any actual sense now in modern times.

I'll say it again: I don't care what anyone else believes. Everyone has the inalienable right to believe in gods or demons or fairies or in any of this higher power stuff if they so choose. I would never want to infringe on anyone's rights or try to stop them from believing. I'm simply asking why would anyone choose to believe any of this stuff? How can any of this higher power stuff seem even remotely plausible to people? What experiences have others had that could have led them to these supernatural conclusions? Or in other words, what am I missing? Because clearly I must be missing something. 

[AlSymerz]

3 minutes ago, GoatmasterGeneral said:

Millennials are in their late 20's, 30's and even their early 40's now. You must mean the Zoomers, they're the new millennials.

Millenials = anyone younger than me, and if they call me Boomer they are a stupid millennial!

(although I kind of like Boomer out of all the names they could choose, it just seems overused)

 

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:36 AM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

 

 

Not only should you have freedom of choice my sweets gobbling friend, you do have freedom of choice. Of course it's yours along with everyone else's right to think and believe whatever they want, that goes without saying afaic. But I don't think anyone's right to believe is the issue here.

What I can't understand is how could it possibly be that here in the digital age of the 21st century there are still so many otherwise reasonably intelligent and seemingly normal sane adults who choose to believe in ancient myths, deities and superstitions, aka god/religion? Now that science has explained away so much of what was not understood 2,000 or even 1,000 or even 500 years ago and we know that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth for instance, what is the rationale behind modern day people continuing to believe in a magical, supernatural, omnicient creator who exists completely outside of the constraints of space and time and the laws of physics?

Most of us would probably laugh at someone who claimed they seriously belived in Santa and his elves, or the Easter Bunny, or the tooth fairy, or flying pigs, or the flying spaghetti monster, or Zeus & Apollo, or Odin & Thor, or primitive natives in loin cloths and grass skirts doing rain dances or sacrificing virgins to the volcano or something like that. Yet no one bats an eye or thinks it's nuts or at all unusual if someone says they believe in a sky fairy or heaven & hell, or angels, or spirits, or demons, or satan, or the father, the son, and the holy ghost or any of that nonsense. Even though none of these things would seem to make any actual sense now in modern times.

I'll say it again: I don't care what anyone else believes. Everyone has the inalienable right to believe in gods or demons or fairies or in any of this higher power stuff if they so choose. I would never want to infringe on anyone's rights or try to stop them from believing. I'm simply asking why would anyone choose to believe any of this stuff? How can any of this higher power stuff seem even remotely plausible to people? What experiences have others had that could have led them to these supernatural conclusions? Or in other words, what am I missing? Because clearly I must be missing something. 

The sweet gobbler is back general. I've been thinking about this and some people find it beneficial to believe in sky fairy/god's/the honey monster, even if there like imaginary friends for grown ups. 2 people from my old church attempted suicide after which they discovered faith in God which has helped them stay steady and no more suicide attempts. Another pal who gave up drug  dealing and who spends all his time volunteering now with local homeless  charity is also a strong believer. He was the last person I expected to go to church. Yet he goes. I'd say some people are bit broken and having a faith can help them stay positive and functioning. My cousin who was  literally spending all his money on crack cocaine became quite appreciative of the church as they were keeping him going with there food for the community . He also thinks Jesus life was very inspiring with all the help he gave people. And my grandfather became a believer of sorts before he died. He found it all rather comforting. 

 

Sounds to me that you don't need faith now.  My brother does not get it either. 

 

Also There are eye witness accounts about jesus ressurection and various sightings post crucification but tbh it's hardly concrete stuff .Its probably about as likely I would have thought as those flying sauces and little green men that others believe they saw or were abducted by and why'd the aliens want to do all that anal probing😂  whyyyyyyy

[AlSymerz]

It's also not always about a particular figure, or the same figure others look to.  I know people who go to church purely because of the environment, not the fact that there is some guy nailed to a cross they have to worship. My cousin goes to church for the entertainment, he loves the church organ and the pastor is happy to let him play it. My two sister in laws both got baptised and joined their husbands churches when they got married yet neither of them actually believe in the religion. These days they only go to church to keep their kid in the expensive private school. To me that sounds silly, but it's their life and I'm sure they think there are things in my life that are silly. There are all sorts of reasons people go to church actually worshipping a god like figure is only one of them.

 

Do you think that if God offered anal probes as a part of Sunday worship numbers would go up or down?

 

[GoatmasterGeneral]

3 hours ago, KillaKukumba said:

It's also not always about a particular figure, or the same figure others look to.  I know people who go to church purely because of the environment, not the fact that there is some guy nailed to a cross they have to worship. My cousin goes to church for the entertainment, he loves the church organ and the pastor is happy to let him play it. My two sister in laws both got baptised and joined their husbands churches when they got married yet neither of them actually believe in the religion. These days they only go to church to keep their kid in the expensive private school. To me that sounds silly, but it's their life and I'm sure they think there are things in my life that are silly. There are all sorts of reasons people go to church actually worshipping a god like figure is only one of them.

 

Do you think that if God offered anal probes as a part of Sunday worship numbers would go up or down?

 

I don't question why people might want to go to church and be part of a community, that seems rather obvious. My dilema is trying to understand why 90% of Americans profess a belief in some sort of higher power. Apparently 56% of them believe and have faith in the Christian sky fairy as portrayed in the Bible, while 32% believe in some other 'higher power'. I know I'm out of touch with the "normies" but still that number seems insanely high to me. And it doesn't matter if it's the Judeo Christian god, that is by far the most prevalent one here in the states, but what I'm really getting at is the fact that most people, 90% believe in some sort of a higher power. Because even 72% of the ones that say they don't believe in 'god' still believe in some other higher power and that absolutely baffles me. They estimate only 500 million or 7% of the world's population identifies as atheist (no belief in any higher power) with roughly 40% of that number (200 mill) coming from China. Could these numbers be real, or are there heaps of people not feeling like they can be honest in the survey responses?

 

 

[AlSymerz]

I would imagine there are people out there who use the term 'higher power' because the name God is so often frowned upon. Or maybe just simply higher power means they don't have to offer a description if asked.

But people believe all sorts of weird shit. Not long after some numpty (wrongly) realised that if X% of the Australian public put their faith as Jedi on the national census it would have to be official recognised as a religion of the country, the same dumb shits decide there had to be a Jedi religion. Not even all the millions of nutjobs that follow Star Wars were dumb enough to get into it but there was churches of the Jedi set up. Of course it was made up, or course there was no real faith, it was just a stupid idea that went too far and when they realised it wasn't as simple as X% proclaiming the faith they fucked off back into their hovels. But it doesn't take much to get people to follow something they think is right for them no matter how silly you or I think it might be.

 

 

[Sardonicist]

On 2/25/2022 at 12:38 PM, blaaacdoommmmfan said:

Dead thanks for the measured response. In fact it's all been in good spirits. I want to keep that up.  To be a Christian was never an easy choice. Carrying ones cross is mentioned a few times in new testament as it was a reality for the early Christians.its true the Christian rules do seem rather dated now but back then they were rather progressive. All were equal before God. The Romans did not like this at all.  better treatment of children as for Romans infanticide was e just the done thing.after  few years they'd decide if the child would be adopted into the family or abandoned. The early church was against this and they'd take in the ones who weren't smothered by daddy or eaten by wolves. 

So I think anybody should have freedom of choice  of God/sky fairy😂 or believing in none at all or sitting on the fence should be everyone's right. Also we should all be at peace with each other. So there's no excuse to do terrible deeds because they have a different god and they look different. 

 

 

Most animals are not at peace with each other. So why should humans be at peace with each other? Well because humans do better through co-operation. But God is nature and nature is god. If god created everything, 99.9% of natural plant/animal species do not co-operate. Humans being at peace with one another is Anti-God and this is clearly stated in the biblical story of The Tower Of Babel. God wants man to be divided. he wants humans to not understand each other which is the same as wanting humans to kill and eat each other. There is logic here, humans co-operating leads to technology which apparently causes climate change which will destroy all life on the planet, so God is right, humans should not be at peace with one another. 

 

 

[blaaacdoommmmfan]

On 2/25/2022 at 12:02 AM, KillaKukumba said:

Ok no terrible deeds, but have you seen some of the new millennials and what they leave home looking like, we have to be allowed to at least laugh at them

Ok laugh in a jovial way then but strictly no whacking with medieval maces. Standards are to be kept after all 😂

[AlSymerz]

I've worked hard to keep my standards as low as they are!

 

[Dead1]

I was watching Vikings Valhalla whose themes include Christian-Pagan conflict. 

 

I dawned to me that despite my ancestors being Roman Catholic (my grandmother was a novice nun), I subconsciously had completely denounced that part of my heritage.

I sooner relate to Jewish secularism of the 19th century and ancient pre-Socratic Greek philosophy than anything Christian.

Of course the likes of Darwin, Marx, Voltaire etc feature much more prominently in my thinking. 

As such there is 1500 years of Roman Catholic peasants I effectively wipe away.    It is as if my own ancestors only emerge in 1940s when they finally learn to read and Yugoslav socialism turned Christianity into a bunch of  museums and historical curios.

[navybsn]

On 2/24/2022 at 8:36 PM, GoatmasterGeneral said:

the flying spaghetti monster

Hey, why drag the only respectable spectral deity into this? TFSM fucking rules man. And just because I have nothing of real value to add to the conversation...I'll just say that this is the only appropriate baptism IMO

Inquisition - Baptized in Black Goat Blood

 

[AlSymerz]

I know there is a breed of chicken that has black blood, but goats don't generally don't come with such qualities so I can't imagine baptizing one in black goats blood would be very feasible. Although I suppose for colour blind baptizees it wouldn't matter much.

 

[navybsn]

Yeah, always thought the title should've been..."a Black Goat's Blood" but just wrote it off.