Your top 5 albums?

[Thrashman]

Rob Barrett joined Cannibal Corpse some time after the first two Solstice albums, so that's probably why they were mentioned. Rob's contributions to CC were nowhere near his output with Solstice though, those two albums have riffs for days and some of the sharpest transitions you'll hear in death/thrash.

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I've never really been into CC. Good documentary though, I basically just love watching documentaries about metal bands full stop.

This is a lot more up my street for sure anyway.

[BlutAusNerd]

Rob Barrett joined Cannibal Corpse some time after the first two Solstice albums, so that's probably why they were mentioned. Rob's contributions to CC were nowhere near his output with Solstice though, those two albums have riffs for days and some of the sharpest transitions you'll hear in death/thrash.

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I've never really been into CC. Good documentary though, I basically just love watching documentaries about metal bands full stop.

This is a lot more up my street for sure anyway.

Yeah, CC has always been that dull cartoon death metal band that most people like because of their over the top lyrics and imagery AFAIC. Musically they've never grabbed my attention, despite the obvious skill of many of the individual band members.

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[Thrashman]

Yeah, the bassist and the other guitarist both seem like incredible musicians. And the singer is pretty cool really. Nothing against the drummer either. So why aren't they better? Just not great songwriters I guess.

[BlutAusNerd]

29 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:  

7 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said: Yeah, CC has always been that dull cartoon death metal band that most people like because of their over the top lyrics and imagery AFAIC. Musically they've never grabbed my attention, despite the obvious skill of many of the individual band members.

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sing Tapatalk

Yeah, the bassist and the other guitarist both seem like incredible musicians. And the singer is pretty cool really. Nothing against the drummer either. So why aren't they better? Just not great songwriters I guess.

I think they have just arrived throughout their career to be meat and potatoes, no frills death metal, and they have achieved that. I certainly don't have a problem with that, but most stock death metal I like has interesting riffs and songwriting choices. It has been proven that these members can create interesting material in other bands, it just never manifested within the confines of CC for whatever reason.

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[Thrashman]

I see. Will have to investigate more of their other projects then!

[BlutAusNerd]

I see. Will have to investigate more of their other projects then!

Check out Monstrosity's first two albums and Retribution by Malevolent Creation. That should be a good start.

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[Thrashman]

Will do, thanks!

[FatherAlabaster]

5 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I think they have just arrived throughout their career to be meat and potatoes, no frills death metal, and they have achieved that. I certainly don't have a problem with that, but most stock death metal I like has interesting riffs and songwriting choices. It has been proven that these members can create interesting material in other bands, it just never manifested within the confines of CC for whatever reason.

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I don't agree with this. I'm not sure how much my enjoyment of them stems from nostalgia, but I still dig their early stuff through Tomb Of The Mutilated and a handful of Corpsegrinder albums from when I revisited them in my 20s. They haven't released anything good for a long time, but it's fair to say they typified DM for me growing up, along with some other Florida mainstays.

[BlutAusNerd]

5 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said: I think they have just arrived throughout their career to be meat and potatoes, no frills death metal, and they have achieved that. I certainly don't have a problem with that, but most stock death metal I like has interesting riffs and songwriting choices. It has been proven that these members can create interesting material in other bands, it just never manifested within the confines of CC for whatever reason.

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I don't agree with this. I'm not sure how much my enjoyment of them stems from nostalgia, but I still dig their early stuff through Tomb Of The Mutilated and a handful of Corpsegrinder albums from when I revisited them in my 20s. They haven't released anything good for a long time, but it's fair to say they typified DM for me growing up, along with some other Florida mainstays.

They're the most popular death metal band ever, so I know that I'm in the minority with this opinion. They can do what they do well, and sometimes I can find myself enjoying a song or two, but a whole album of theirs has yet to hold my interest. Don't even get me started on their live performance, as they had the right idea with maintaining a sense of brevity on their albums. When they headline a gig and play for over an hour, the tedium is almost unbearable.

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[FatherAlabaster]

24 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said:

They're the most popular death metal band ever, so I know that I'm in the minority with this opinion. They can do what they do well, and sometimes I can find myself enjoying a song or two, but a whole album of theirs has yet to hold my interest. Don't even get me started on their live performance, as they had the right idea with maintaining a sense of brevity on their albums. When they headline a gig and play for over an hour, the tedium is almost unbearable.

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There are a bunch of bands that are objectively better, and I don't know how they've parlayed their shtick into such a high profile career, but that early material is classic. The first time I saw them was the Vile tour and they were fucking awesome. I have to agree with you about their live show these days. Everything sounds the same, Fisher bombs the lyrics, it's all pretty paint-by-numbers. 

It does make me think about the recent spate of new songs coming out by big name bands, like Metallica and Meshuggah, and how vehemently some people will defend their right to be mediocre. I don't understand it.

[BlutAusNerd]

24 minutes ago, BlutAusNerd said: They're the most popular death metal band ever, so I know that I'm in the minority with this opinion. They can do what they do well, and sometimes I can find myself enjoying a song or two, but a whole album of theirs has yet to hold my interest. Don't even get me started on their live performance, as they had the right idea with maintaining a sense of brevity on their albums. When they headline a gig and play for over an hour, the tedium is almost unbearable.

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There are a bunch of bands that are objectively better, and I don't know how they've parlayed their shtick into such a high profile career, but that early material is classic. The first time I saw them was the Vile tour and they were fucking awesome. I have to agree with you about their live show these days. Everything sounds the same, Fisher bombs the lyrics, it's all pretty paint-by-numbers. 

It does make me think about the recent spate of new songs coming out by big name bands, like Metallica and Meshuggah, and how vehemently some people will defend their right to be mediocre. I don't understand it.

I'm getting sick of that mentality. It doesn't make me an elitist to say that the later shit by any number of classic bands is just that, shit, and their legendary status does nothing to justify that. Quite the opposite, the more legendary a band is, the less slack they should get for trying to keep their careers going when they've obviously bankrupted their creative vault.

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[FatherAlabaster]

1 hour ago, BlutAusNerd said:

I'm getting sick of that mentality. It doesn't make me an elitist to say that the later shit by any number of classic bands is just that, shit, and their legendary status does nothing to justify that. Quite the opposite, the more legendary a band is, the less slack they should get for trying to keep their careers going when they've obviously bankrupted their creative vault.

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100%. What it looks like to me is that the fans identify closely enough with the band's sound that anything that doesn't blatantly suck will make them happy.  It starts to resemble devotion to team sports IMO. I'm annoyed by how defensive people get about it. The worst part for me is the music blogs, they used to be independent but now it seems like the biggest ones get paid to suck the big bands off and lend them a bit of credibility. Witness people tripping over themselves to praise that ATG album.

[BlutAusNerd]

1 hour ago, BlutAusNerd said: I'm getting sick of that mentality. It doesn't make me an elitist to say that the later shit by any number of classic bands is just that, shit, and their legendary status does nothing to justify that. Quite the opposite, the more legendary a band is, the less slack they should get for trying to keep their careers going when they've obviously bankrupted their creative vault.

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100%. What it looks like to me is that the fans identify closely enough with the band's sound that anything that doesn't blatantly suck will make them happy.  It starts to resemble devotion to team sports IMO. I'm annoyed by how defensive people get about it. The worst part for me is the music blogs, they used to be independent but now it seems like the biggest ones get paid to suck the big bands off and lend them a bit of credibility. Witness people tripping over themselves to praise that ATG album.

It seems extremely disingenuous to me that the metal community supposedly shuns that aspect of the mainstream music market, but then does exactly the same thing. It makes sense when pop music does it, they're all about sales, so dickriding the act that sells the most regardless of their actual quality makes sense. It is then the ultimate falsehood for metal to promote the same mediocrity, and misrepresents metal as nothing more than a pointless image oriented genre for fans of monster truck rallies and WWE.

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[RelentlessOblivion]

Careful now you might hurt Deathstorm's feelings...

[BlutAusNerd]

Careful now you might hurt Deathstorm's feelings...

That's not to say that the two can't coincide, but on a Venn diagram, the cross-section of those two groups would be a narrow one.

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[RelentlessOblivion]

Down here metal isn't really associated with wrestling and monster trucks (thankfully). The much more common association is with goth/emo culture for some ungodly reason. Probs focused on the wrong part of your post here though.

 

It's sad really that mediocrity or worse is almost encouraged if you're a legendary metal band. Metallica, Megadeth, Obituary, Venom, etc will sell based on name alone regardless of quality. I wouldn't find as much of an issue with that if other similarly iconic bands weren't producing quality records.

[MacabreEternal]

After FA's little Facebook rant on this subject matter I have been musing over this topic as I have gone about the day today and I have nothing major to add in terms of just echoing what has been said above already.  As well as the acceptance of mediocrity what pisses me off in equal measure almost is the "well what do we expect from them at their age?" argument - which is an utter kop out.  Another means to corroborate mediocrity by assuming everyone over 31 are in the twilight years of their career and should be allowed to release poppycock (probably can only record on day release from the nursing home eh?).

If one more person tells how amazing Slayer are for their age I may do an actual poo!  Likewise with me being told how I have got to respect Metallica for "still being in the game man!" after all these years.  Fuck off!

I will respect the above two bands for their earlier output and acknowledge and praise that as it deserves.  A band gains no further respect from me for sticking around years after the quality in what they did diminished to a below par level of output.  The only band of late I can possibly attribute having the common sense to finally hang up their boots before it gets too embarrassing is Black Sabbath.  I mean "13" wasn't terrible but my god it was light years away from their best work. 

 

[RelentlessOblivion]

It's easy to shoot down that argument as well. Look at Overkill or Destruction (ok Spiritual Genocide was a step down from the previous couple albums but still) for example. Enslaved is another good example though again I don't enjoy their more recent material as much. I consider Bathory and TON recent enough to mention as well given their tenure. TON in particular if you consider the Carnivore material as well (which is amazing). It's not like you can't crank out good to great albums twenty or thirty years down the road. Hell even Iron Maiden manage to sneak one or two songs I like into their new records. Now that I think about it Book Of Souls could have been pretty good if they didn't try to write it as a double album from the outset.

[BlutAusNerd]

While they are not as numerous as the many bands who have lapsed into self-parody and mediocrity, there are a number of bands that have a storied career and put out excellent releases 10, 20, or even 30 years after their inception. Some have had highs and lows, whereas others have been consistent and solid, but there's absolutely no reason why any of these acts should be resting on their laurels.

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[RelentlessOblivion]

On the other hand you have bands or artists whose catalogues are virtually worthless with a couple of gems scattered in the filth. Case and point Cradle Of Filth are all but unlistenable post Cruelty yet somehow people will crawl up Dani's ass like he isn't a pantomime BM musician.

[Requiem]

This really interesting conversation seems to have come to a shuddering halt some months ago.  

I agree that many metal fans are blind to the shortcomings of their favourite bands' recent releases, but at the same time, metal fans are human and favourite bands can be like comfort blankets. I think that's why bands like Iron Maiden and Metallica continue to stay somewhat relevant, because people know them and feel safe and secure listening to them. Iron Maiden in particular has a wholesomeness that even I can detect. 

But seriously, look at 'Book of Souls'. Everyone's raving about it, and there are some good moments I guess, but in the metal landscape of 2016 it's a bit of a dud, right? It's a damp squib. But I bought it along with everyone else and walk around telling myself that it's good and that I should listen to it more. It's ok, but doesn't deserve the adulation it receives, at least in my opinion. 

But that's the good thing about music - it means much more to people than simply a fleeting or fair-weather connection. Sometimes we just need to hear Steve Harris' bass to make the day seem ok. 

[MacabreEternal]

9 minutes ago, Requiem said:

I think that's why bands like Iron Maiden and Metallica continue to stay somewhat relevant, because people know them and feel safe and secure listening to them. Iron Maiden in particular has a wholesomeness that even I can detect. 

But that's the good thing about music - it means much more to people than simply a fleeting or fair-weather connection. Sometimes we just need to hear Steve Harris' bass to make the day seem ok. 

I am not saying you are corroborating mediocrity here but you are highlighting for me what is wrong with metal.  If people like "Book Of Souls" because they can articulate some merit from the performance, songwriting or hell even the concept then all power to them.  If people like it because "it's Iron Maiden dude, they made "Number of the Beast" and stuff!" then that's not acceptable, that's denial of self to some extent in the regard that you are just buying a record because you grew up listening to the band and find some security from it, even though you know it to be sub-par.

That isn't what music is for, some of the best albums I have are singular releases from a band's discography because nothing else spoke to me from their discography or was of the same quality.  I can't buy the next Immortal record because I want it to be "At The Heart Of Winter", I have to buy it for it's own merits as a standalone release.

[Requiem]

13 minutes ago, MacabreEternal said:

I am not saying you are corroborating mediocrity here but you are highlighting for me what is wrong with metal.  If people like "Book Of Souls" because they can articulate some merit from the performance, songwriting or hell even the concept then all power to them.  If people like it because "it's Iron Maiden dude, they made "Number of the Beast" and stuff!" then that's not acceptable, that's denial of self to some extent in the regard that you are just buying a record because you grew up listening to the band and find some security from it, even though you know it to be sub-par.

That isn't what music is for, some of the best albums I have are singular releases from a band's discography because nothing else spoke to me from their discography or was of the same quality.  I can't buy the next Immortal record because I want it to be "At The Heart Of Winter", I have to buy it for it's own merits as a standalone release.

 

There is no doubt that many Iron Maiden fans fall into the second category you outline here. Very few people claim that 'Book of Souls' is as good as the band's earlier work, but so many people praise it too much. A good yardstick is to imagine if this was an entirely new band putting out their first album, would 'Book of Souls' be as popular? Of course not. Same with Metallica, especially with the new album coming out. People are batty for it. 

As for the question of "what music is for", I guess it serves a number of purposes and I don't think I'm quite as cutthroat as you. I do agree though that any type of phoney behaviour in life is unfortunate, whether it's a kid listening to black metal because it's supposed to be 'evil' or Kanye walking around in a Testament shirt. 

Posers leave the hall, and all that. 

 

[MacabreEternal]

35 minutes ago, Requiem said:

I don't think I'm quite as cutthroat as you.

Damn, you're onto me already!