Drum Machines?

[NTNR]

There are times when bands use artificial means to create their music. Some do it in studio, some live and some do it for both. My question to you is do you think it's necessary for a band to have a drummer in this day and age? Personally I don't. Chances are you own one more more albums where the drummer is either a machine or a program. Bands like: Godflesh, Pitch Shifter, Vintersorg, Rigor Sardonicous, and others didn't and/or don't use drummers both live and in studio. What do you think?

[FatherAlabaster]

I've been programming drums on my albums for eleven years now, so I better say yes... Drum programming is an amazing songwriting tool that can help take a lot of the guesswork and miscommunication out of collaborative projects, and even guys like Chuck Schuldiner, who always had top-notch drummers working with him, would program drums for his demo tracks. On recordings it's a bit trickier. If you're going for an artificial aesthetic (like Godflesh or Gigantic Brain or Agoraphobic Nosebleed), great. If you're trying to fool people into believing you have a real drummer, or just trying to get a good sound that isn't overtly fake, then you've got a lot more work to do to humanize your drum tracks. EZ Drummer and Superior Drummer have made this a bit easier than it used to be, but I still hear tons of programmed drum tracks where every hihat hit is the same, every cymbal crash, etc. - and even when people pay attention to their velocities and timing issues, I personally dislike the slick, overly clear, top-end heavy drum sound. The cymbals usually give up the game. I've been using Fruity Loops since I started recording "seriously" in college, and it's clunky and cumbersome, but it lets me do what I want. I have something like 67 separate sample hits comprising a five-piece kit and six different cymbals, most of which I've taken myself from recordings I've personally done for my own bands, or from other bands whose drummers have given me permission to sample their kits. Getting a coherent sound is a pain in the balls, and then the process of programming can finally begin, and that takes hours per song because I do it hit by hit. At the end, I export each instrument separately and treat the tracks as if they were live drums. The end result? Not something that sounds completely real... but something I can be proud of, because I worked my ass off on it, did it all from scratch, and it doesn't sound like anybody else's drums, because they're MY samples and I did it MY way. Any sonic inconsistencies or other mistakes can also be laid at my door... A final word about recording is that so many things are sample-augmented or all out replaced and quantized and then room-effected anyway, especially in modern metal recordings, that it doesn't make too much of a difference who or what triggered the initial sounds. Always keep in mind that it's a carefully constructed fiction, which could be said of pretty much any recording ever. Live shows are an even bigger challenge. I've only seen a couple of bands even pull off programmed backing tracks (with a solid live drummer playing to a click) - Katatonia being one of them. Even with the bands that have artificial drums as an integral part of their sound, I personally, usually, feel let down when I see a group of musicians playing to programmed drums. I'm not entirely sure why. But I've always been much more impressed in a live setting by actual drummers, and especially by bands who make all the music themselves, onstage. I wouldn't want to play my material to a computer or CD, for that reason, although as I say, I'm not 100% sure why it's a problem for me if everyone is playing their asses off and putting on a good show. In any case I would absolutely support a band who chose not to use a real drummer, for whatever reason. I just hope they can pull it off.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Is a human drummer absolutely necessary? no of course not. Especially where you are Mike I mean you've been trying to find a drummer since Dave left the band with no success. If you can't get a drummer use a machine. I was actually thinking of getting one to help me practice and improve my playing.

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: Drum Machines? I've never been huge on the sound of a drum machine. If we were geniuses and could make it sound as awesome as on Ziltoid: The Omniscient, I would be down for it, but I think big, thundering, acoustic drums are the way to go for our sound. I don't foresee us playing live again in the near future, and we still have some work to do before we can even record, so I'm not worried about it just yet. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[orcslayr23]

I prefer the sound of a "real" drummer, but considering I play drums on my keyboard (like all my other instruments), I can hardly say i'm not a fan of drum machines.

[NTNR]

So far the response has here has been better than that from doommantia. Keep the votes and responses coming!

[forge]

I prefer 'regular' drums for metal, but to me, electronic drums are okay in industrial (because they program everything, I guess). It depends on the band. I'll listen to almost anything, and if I like the end result, I usually don't worry.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I suppose it comes down to whether you can actually get a full or part time drummer for the band. I think most people would prefer the sound of an actual drummer but if need be a drum machine is perfectly acceptable provided the music doesn't suck. Real drummer or not Nevertanezra will still sound awesome so who cares.

[deathstorm]

Quick question. Does. Triggers count as a drum machine I know some bands use them.

[deathstorm]

On the new fear factory. Indrustaist. They have a drum machine. On it it was programmed by a real drummer perfect expample of a drum machine live I saw a live video clip of Samuel. Live. The way it was setup it had like keyboard with a mini drum kit right. I forget the song

[FatherAlabaster]

It's kind of a grey area, but I wouldn't count triggers by themselves, especially if you are just using them for sound reinforcement rather than all-out replacement. If you're replacing everything or using an e-kit, you better have a good reason because you're missing out on the potential of all that great acoustic sound that a real drumkit can produce in the right hands, which is the big element missing from a recording done with programmed drums. Even programming with hits taken from a live recording in a real space, you miss out on a lot of it. But especially for metal, I think it's an issue that can be overcome.

[deathstorm]

I seen some drummers have Roland electric kit right next to actual. Drum kits What whould guys think of that

[FatherAlabaster]

Usually they're just using it for extra sounds, like bass drops or kettle drums. Sometimes they're triggering longer samples - sound effects or intros or whatever. No different from having a keyboard player doing the same thing. That's where it really depends: is it enhancing their musical performance, or are they using it as a crutch?

[NTNR]

You're giving me all kinds of ideas.

[RelentlessOblivion]

well we can't have that Mike, quick someone delete the thread

[deathstorm]

Poor mike may lose his thread. Lol

[FatherAlabaster]

Actually, this might be of interest to you - a lot of bands have drummers who use trigger pads for additional sounds, but Samael did the opposite a few years ago on tour. They had programmed drums for their set, controlled by a guy who had a small acoustic percussion setup (I think some toms and cymbals..?) so they had an electronic sound but kept the resonance of some acoustic elements, and had the visual impact of a guy sitting in the back playing along as well. It's possible for stuff like this to work. FWIW I think it would go over better in doom than it would in straight death metal, because the easy accusation to make there (an accurate one!) is that you couldn't find someone to play your drum parts as tight as you needed. If you really work it in as part of your sound and have someone controlling it who's part of your stage show, it could make sense.

[NTNR]

Actually, this might be of interest to you - a lot of bands have drummers who use trigger pads for additional sounds, but Samael did the opposite a few years ago on tour. They had programmed drums for their set, controlled by a guy who had a small acoustic percussion setup (I think some toms and cymbals..?) so they had an electronic sound but kept the resonance of some acoustic elements, and had the visual impact of a guy sitting in the back playing along as well. It's possible for stuff like this to work. FWIW I think it would go over better in doom than it would in straight death metal, because the easy accusation to make there (an accurate one!) is that you couldn't find someone to play your drum parts as tight as you needed. If you really work it in as part of your sound and have someone controlling it who's part of your stage show, it could make sense.

I've always been very anti triggers as I feel if you're going to drum then drum, but in our situation it might be a good idea. However they cost more than any of us can afford. But it's something to ponder in any event.

[FatherAlabaster]

Not that I'm recommending you use electronic drums, but if you go that route, instead of using triggers, it could be as simple as a guy with you onstage with some toms and cymbals or something - not a full kit - and he doesn't have to be awesome, just good enough to play along with the cd or computer or machine or whatever. His job would be to start the drum tracks, accentuate them with his live drums, maybe back something up with keyboards if you're using them, and generally to look cool so you're not just a two piece playing to a rhythm track. But as far as your stuff that I've heard on soundcloud/youtube, I think your best bet is to hold out for a real drummer, at least for live shows.

[NTNR]

That's an even better idea, still costly but ultimately effective if we could find someone interested enough to give it a shot and/or work with what we have. Do you have any recommendations on kits and/or programs to use with said kits?

[FatherAlabaster]

Well, the go-to program for sequencing drums for a recording these days seems to be Superior Drummer (or EZ Drummer). I'm happy with Fruity Loops, but it's an odd, cumbersome way of working, and I don't know that I would recommend it to anyone else. And there are good standalone drum machines, although those have changed a lot since I was in the market. But if you wanted to go the "Samael industrial" route, program your drums with whatever, then record that, and get some used toms and cymbals with stands at a pawn shop or something. Some real drums for your live "percussionist" to hit after he presses play on the drum track. So you'd be playing along with the recording (cd or computer - you'd need a PA for any of this stuff), but there would be the live element to the percussion, and you'd have some of the richness of live drum sounds. I wouldn't bother investing in an e-kit - you still need a skilled drummer to play that, real drums sound better, and none of the drummers I know have ever really liked playing e-kits. I guess what I'm saying is, either hold out for a good drummer, or write and do a recording (it doesn't have to be THE recording) with programmed drums, and experiment with someone playing some basic live drums over the top of that. So, say, your kick, snare, hihat, and ride could be programmed and recorded a la Godflesh, and the toms and cymbals and maybe another snare are all performed live by whoever. It really comes down to finding good-sounding samples that work with your sound, and embracing the electronic aspect of it somehow. It will be a lot of work to prepare, but it doesn't have to be super expensive, and it doesn't take a super-skilled dedicated drummer to perform. I do get the feeling that you and BAN would be much happier with a real drummer, and it would probably gel better with your sound, but there's no harm in experimenting. One other point I'd make is that if you do a recording with programmed drums, and get it sounding good, it'll be that much easier to attract a real drummer for live/recording/writing. It doesn't hurt to put that recording out there and show what you're capable of.

[deathstorm]

Thanks father alabaster. That was I was talking a note Samal he had one bass drum one cymba one Tom yes he even had some drumsticks.

[NTNR]

@alabaster That's good to know. I honestly think that when everything is said and done we're going to be left with a program and/or machine. Unless some doom minded drummers suddenly appear in UT we're fucked otherwise. One of the drummers that was with us officially for two months quit in January this year because he didn't want to dedicate the time to getting "good enough" to play our music. He had all kinds of time to practice but he didn't want to. Dude was pretty good too, but oh well. I don't know if our stuff is hard from a drumming standpoint but I'm told it is. As a guitarist I just listen to something and figure out how to play it. I don't understand why a drummer needs a click track or whatever to play. To me it's incredibly unprofessional and shows a lack of skill if you can't play what you hear after a certain point. It's like when I saw Novembers Doom last year, their drummer was phenomenal by all accounts, but he was playing to a click and had to tap the hi-hat in every song where it was there or not in the actual recording. Again, not being a drummer I don't understand. That's what's great about machines.

[NTNR]

Here are the results of this poll the first time I posted it: I only like bands with real drummers 57% 34 votes If the musics good who cares? 23% 14 votes I'd give it a chance 12% 7 votes It only works for industrial music 5% 3 Votes Who needs a drummer in this day and age? 3% 2 votes 60 votes in all

[emprorzurg]

Type O Negative used programmed drums in three of their albums, I couldn't even tell. That being said, sometimes programmed drums are awful, so I guess it depends.