Pushing religion on others

[Viking]

So today I was at school doing homework before class. Some guy came up to me pushing God and christianity on me. I told him multiple times No thanks. He kept pushing. He asked why and I said I don't believe in that. I am a pagan. I believe in norse gods. He just stood there staring at me for a bit before he left. The nerve of some of these christians! Seriously. I am not pushing Odin on you so don't push your god on me. It looked almost like he was offended by me saying that I was pagan. Just wanted to share it with you.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I'm an atheist (well perhaps agnostic would be a better term given I am willing to accept the existance of a god or gods is possible I merely consider this incredibly unlikely) and the one thing I hate above anything else is people that try to force their viewpoints onto you whether it be christians, atheists, vegans, whatever. I respect people's choices in life but I expect the same freedom in return. Mind you I do have a hell of a lot of fun pranking the jehovas witnesses that come doorknocking sometimes.

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: Pushing religion on others Sharing opinions is a great thing if both parties are open to speaking and listening freely. Brow beating and propaganda suck though. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[Os Abysmi Vel Daath]

Sharing opinions is a great thing if both parties are open to speaking and listening freely. Brow beating and propaganda suck though. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

The way you look at issues reminds me so much of myself. Trying to take the higher ground and not make black and white statements.

[RelentlessOblivion]

In a free and open discussion such as I have had with only a select few people of faith it's actually quite enjoyable. I can not stand people who just try to use fear as a tactic in their attempts to "convert the heathen". In my experience the jehovas witnesses are the worst for that so if I know they're in the neighbourhood I try to prank them.

[Dogtor]

Yeah, I´ve always wondered what´s in it for them? What is it that I dont see? Has god promised and reserved something cool up in heaven for the ones who convert the most heretics? Religion is very personal so it´s sick to try to brainwash you something else. For example, if my favourite food would be like steak with fries, I don´t accept some fanatic to come and tell me it should be pea soup. Come on. Let me me eat!

[Scullicon]

I studied religion for a while the first course we took was toghether with the theology class. I meet many great people, both Christians, Jews and Muslims, But also some with a more Hindu or Buddhist approach. I had no trouble with anyone until one of out teachers one day wrote God with huge letters on the whiteboard and told us to speak the first that came to our minds. I said: - Oppressor. And suddenly I made myself enemy's. Some refused to speak to me after that. I try my best to be open minded, but I also treat people the way they treat me.

[Riverlioness]

The question "have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior?" still makes me cross the street to avoid the discussion.

[RelentlessOblivion]

The one and only time I've ever listened to what the really pushy types have had to say was one time the JW door knocked me and the one doing the rounds was female and incredibly good looking. Didn't care what she had to say I just liked staring at her . Serious discussions of faith however I have entered into with a few people around my university and I quite enjoy these discussions.

[satan 59]

Joboas don't come to my door any more (I'm blacklisted I think), which is a shame. Love chatting with them, I usually go and out one of my satan/devil t-shirts on if I see them coming I have a lot of banter with the street preachers, it's my free entertainment.

[FatherAlabaster]

I was raised with an odd Eastern religion based on Hinduism, but I walked away from that a long time ago. Doing so was painful, but necessary. I've never had a good conversation about religion with monotheists. I've tried. I gave up. "Live and let live" is all great and stuff, but my favorite thing about the pursuit of the scientific method is that you can spend your life learning how to ask the right questions... The more overtly religious people seem to think they already have the answers. We use the same words but we're speaking different languages. Frustrating, yes, but it can make great fodder for song lyrics!

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: Pushing religion on others

I was raised with an odd Eastern religion based on Hinduism, but I walked away from that a long time ago. Doing so was painful, but necessary. I've never had a good conversation about religion with monotheists. I've tried. I gave up. "Live and let live" is all great and stuff, but my favorite thing about the pursuit of the scientific method is that you can spend your life learning how to ask the right questions... The more overtly religious people seem to think they already have the answers. We use the same words but we're speaking different languages. Frustrating, yes, but it can make great fodder for song lyrics!

I have a problem with the scientific method, in that it's designed to make you see things that you want to see, instead of just looking with open eyes and no expectations. While some outside variables may be accounted for based on what we think may happen, others are not, so we don't get the whole picture. It's linear thinking in an entropy filled world, and would be more effective if everything in this existence was in a vacuum. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[FatherAlabaster]

I have a problem with the scientific method' date=' in that it's designed to make you see things that you want to see, instead of just looking with open eyes and no expectations.[/quote'] I have to disagree. The heart of the scientific method is the same sort of unprejudiced "Zen Mind" that I think you're talking about. Can it turn into narrow thinking? Sure, if you do it wrong. We all use the scientific method. Observe, hypothesize, test, analyze, repeat. Every theist I've talked to used the scientific method when deciding what to believe - they just stopped at a certain point. That's the frustrating thing for me. But honestly I feel like you and I might mean the same thing, and be saying it in different ways. Allow me to add that we evolved to think in the way that we do, and I don't think anyone, however open-minded, is capable of getting the whole picture. We may have more flexible thought processes than a lot of other animals, but we're by no means gifted with a capacity for universal understanding.

[Viking]

I think they think they are helping by trying to spread it but it is really closed minded and we don't appreciate it. That is part of the reason I don't like christians. I have friends who are christians but they don't push it on me. It is propaganda. He was trying to give me some stupid pamphlet about god or something.

[BlutAusNerd]

I have to disagree. The heart of the scientific method is the same sort of unprejudiced "Zen Mind" that I think you're talking about. Can it turn into narrow thinking? Sure' date=' if you do it wrong. We all use the scientific method. Observe, hypothesize, test, analyze, repeat. Every theist I've talked to used the scientific method when deciding what to believe - they just [i']stopped at a certain point. That's the frustrating thing for me. But honestly I feel like you and I might mean the same thing, and be saying it in different ways. Allow me to add that we evolved to think in the way that we do, and I don't think anyone, however open-minded, is capable of getting the whole picture. We may have more flexible thought processes than a lot of other animals, but we're by no means gifted with a capacity for universal understanding.

It's possible that I'm misunderstanding you, but typically the scientific method is employed to look for something definitive based on an observation. Not only might there not be a definitive answer, because more than one may be correct on varying occasions, but it is impossible to foresee and test for all possible outcomes, especially based on our limited understanding. I'm not saying that it's not useful in some regards, but its scope is often limited. It also becomes a bit superfluous for analyzing the metaphysical, which likely does not play by the same set of rules as our physical 3 dimensional world, and the steps for logical reasoning could likely exist differently on other planes beyond our comprehension. For analyzing what we can perceive, I can see why people use it, but I'm more concerned with what I cannot perceive.

[FatherAlabaster]

Hmm. Ok. I don't believe that "the metaphysical" and "things we can't perceive" are the same thing. I think there's a lot that we'll never know or even grasp, and a lot that we can make instruments to measure and make fumbling guesses at, and then plenty of things that directly affect us on a daily basis that we're well equipped to see and understand. I'm not saying that what we can see is all there is... but my point about the "scientific method" is that it's an outgrowth of the way that we all naturally process information. It depends on what information we get and how we interpret it, but everyone does have some concrete reason for believing they're right - some childhood experience, some "mystical revelation", whatever, they were convinced. And if that makes someone else wrong in the process, so be it. I love that quote, "never try to reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place", but I think it misses the point. The most ass-backwards justification for Christianity that I ever read was in CS Lewis's "Mere Christianity" where he basically said - I paraphrase - that all of the stuff that makes people doubt god's existence is actually even more evidence for god's existence, because it seems like exactly the kind of thing a god would put there to test your faith! Really. Ugh. More like proof that if you really want to be convinced of something, you'll find a way to convince yourself. I've seen friends go through the conversion process. Some of them are even still my friends, because they didn't go all evangelical on me! Some people equate talking about science with proselytizing religion, but that's a false equivalence - like I said before, the heart of science is nothing more than asking questions. The religions I've experienced have a lot more assumptions built in from the outset. AAAnyway. Enough of my babble.

[RelentlessOblivion]

Of course the metaphysical would abide by rules beyond what we experience in our three dimensional existance. You add the fourth dimension of time into the equation and thus open a broad range of new rules which can only apply to things existing in that space. I don't believe there is a God though I am open-minded enough to be convinced otherwise. That which we can not percieve or can only experience very rarely in life is always extremely difficult to prove or disprove and in that case the scientific method simply does not work. Linear thinking is not applicable to non-linear circumstances.

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: Pushing religion on others

Hmm. Ok. I don't believe that "the metaphysical" and "things we can't perceive" are the same thing. I think there's a lot that we'll never know or even grasp' date=' and a lot that we can make instruments to measure and make fumbling guesses at, and then plenty of things that directly affect us on a daily basis that we're well equipped to see and understand. I'm [i']not saying that what we can see is all there is... but my point about the "scientific method" is that it's an outgrowth of the way that we all naturally process information. It depends on what information we get and how we interpret it, but everyone does have some concrete reason for believing they're right - some childhood experience, some "mystical revelation", whatever, they were convinced. And if that makes someone else wrong in the process, so be it. I love that quote, "never try to reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place", but I think it misses the point. The most ass-backwards justification for Christianity that I ever read was in CS Lewis's "Mere Christianity" where he basically said - I paraphrase - that all of the stuff that makes people doubt god's existence is actually even more evidence for god's existence, because it seems like exactly the kind of thing a god would put there to test your faith! Really. Ugh. More like proof that if you really want to be convinced of something, you'll find a way to convince yourself. I've seen friends go through the conversion process. Some of them are even still my friends, because they didn't go all evangelical on me! Some people equate talking about science with proselytizing religion, but that's a false equivalence - like I said before, the heart of science is nothing more than asking questions. The religions I've experienced have a lot more assumptions built in from the outset. AAAnyway. Enough of my babble.

Many people experience things that can be interpreted as metaphysical, but never in any kind of objective way, which is why it is discussed as metaphysical. One of my main problems with the scientific method is that it can only address what can be measured, and many things simply can't be. I'm not saying that science isn't useful, but it has its limits when addressing things that I consider to be more important, where philosophy and spirituality have more infinite and personalized possibilities. Used correctly, the scientific method could help us prod at more metaphysical issues, but it seems it is more often seen as the absolute truth when there's just as much that it can't explain. Maybe my problem lies more with shortsighted and unimaginative scientists, as science can certainly coincide with spirituality and philosophy, which is something most religious types forget as well. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[Viking]

It is something you can't prove. You can believe in what you want and I will believe in what I want. I choose to believe what my ancestors believed. Christianity is a middle eastern religion. The only reason it spread was because of Rome and Constantine. So it is not the religion of my people.

[BlutAusNerd]

Re: Pushing religion on others

It is something you can't prove. You can believe in what you want and I will believe in what I want. I choose to believe what my ancestors believed. Christianity is a middle eastern religion. The only reason it spread was because of Rome and Constantine. So it is not the religion of my people.

Nobody said you can't, not sure what that post was about. You can believe what you want, just as Christians or anyone else can believe what they want. Self-righteousness is typically rooted in insecurity in yourself and your beliefs, in addition to fear of what you don't understand. This is why people brow beat other people, thinking in their ignorance that they clearly have an idea better than anyone else's, and that nobody could have possibly given as much thought to spirituality as they had. Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[Viking]

Yeah I know that. The thing that bothered me was the pushing of it. It was a typical reaction of an ignorant religious fool. Staring in disbelief. He was one of those stupid christians that I hate. Some aren't bad but he was.

[Riverlioness]

Yeah I know that. The thing that bothered me was the pushing of it. It was a typical reaction of an ignorant religious fool. Staring in disbelief. He was one of those stupid christians that I hate. Some aren't bad but he was.

Christians like that make me want to creep into the graveyard at midnight, dig up an unholy demon dog from the pits of hell, and sic him on the devotional tyrant praying to his plastic Jesus.

[Viking]

I totally agree with you dude. Maybe I should start making devil horns at him to scare him. They think we are all the devil. Stupid christians. I will go to Valhalla while he is laying in a dirt hole. Hahahhaha!

[FatherAlabaster]

One of my main problems with the scientific method is that it can only address what can be measured' date=' and many things simply can't be. I'm not saying that science isn't useful, but it has its limits when addressing things that I consider to be more important, where philosophy and spirituality have more infinite and personalized possibilities. Used correctly, the scientific method could help us prod at more metaphysical issues / snip[/quote'] I'm jumping in with both feet here... This, I agree with, definitely. I don't know if you're familiar with Daniel Dennett apart from his involvement with the "new atheists", but my favorite book of his - though dated at this point - is "Consciousness Explained". The title is a bit of a joke, as he admits. One of his points goes to yours, though, which is that the fact that you're having that experience is a piece of data that we can use to help us understand it. In other words, you're treated as an observer of your own consciousness. Privileged beyond others? Maybe not in principle, but practically speaking, for now, yes. You are a provider of data about you, and that data includes your interpretation of what it all means to you. Once an event happens in your mind, at that point, it's not metaphysical. It can be looked at, by you and by others through you. It's not lab science but we can still subject experiences - yours, mine, whoever's - to rigorous scrutiny. Far better that than to say that "science can't touch it", that's a Russell's Teapot kind of argument. I'm not saying causality is well understood at all, or that it will ever be. But to assume that there's a "metaphysical realm" - made up of whatever we don't understand - and to assume that we can somehow access it by "emptying our minds" or whatever (this is the kind of thing that I grew up with, I'm not saying it's what you believe), well, to me that's the opposite of open-mindedness. It's making too many assumptions. Good questions, to me, would start with "what actually happened?" "What did it feel like?" "What does it feel like now?" and "How are you interpreting it?" I think if we had a lot of data on a lot of people, we could understand more about all of us. Not in a huge meaningful way, in a very practical, instant-to-instant way. Here I joined up hoping to make friends and bullshit about metal, and I'm getting into a philosophical argument with the moderator:D. Really batting a thousand...

[Viking]

Yep and you still get to bullshit about metal! \m/ Metal! Fuck yeah!