Amebix

You didn't really respond to my point, which is that the term "proto-black metal" would be more appropriate. Again, while those bands had elements of black metal, it's quite a stretch to say that Celtic Frost or Mercyful Fate are black metal. The difference between calling them black metal and calling Death death metal is that Death actually sounds like death metal. From the instrumentation, to the vocals, to the subject matter, Death were playing death metal. The same cannot be said of Mercyful Fate, Celtic Frost, or Venom. They are better defined as playing something else that influenced black metal. The exception is Bathory, who I do think can justifiably be considered black metal in their own right. As for who should be compared to who, I strongly disagree with you. It seems obvious to me that the bands that really define the black metal sound are those "second wave" black metal bands, like Darkthrone and Mayhem. They had all the qualities of the genre, including the trebly guitars, the shrieking vocals, the dark lo-fi atmosphere, and the demonic subject matter. If I want to determine whether or not a band is black metal, I compare them to bands like Mayhem, NOT Venom. The only first wave band that is really a good representation of black metal is Bathory. As for Venom's visual style, yes there are plenty of other black metal bands with a lot of visual flair. The visuals are still one of the defining characteristics of black metal. But what Venom was doing only vaguely resembled how later black metal bands would act, even if it was an obvious influence. The whole presentation makes more sense when you compare them to what other British metal bands of the time were doing. The British bands of the time were the NWOBHM bands. I don't think Venom was really a NWOBHM band, but that was still their cultural landscape, and there is clear visual resemblance between Venom and the NWOBHM bands.

I disagree with the term "first wave black metal." The appropriate term would be "proto-black metal," because the bands that are referred to as the first wave are the bands that influenced the genre and laid out its different elements. But these bands had pretty much nothing to do with each other, and while Bathory did have the basic black metal sound down and Sarcofago were halfway there, bands like Mercyful Fate, Celtic Frost, and Venom sound almost nothing like black metal (and I say that as a huge Celtic Frost fan). I advocate for the term "proto-black metal" because their relationship with black metal almost perfectly mirrors the relationship between punk and "proto-punk" bands like The Stooges, The Velvet Underground, MC5, New York Dolls, etc. - the elements were there, but it took bands like Darkthrone and Mayhem to put them together. One big issue with the term is that it takes these bands out of their cultural/artistic context. The most obvious victim of this is Venom. The first two Venom albums are awesomely raw and cathartic, but if you see their antics and visuals, they look ridiculous in an almost Spinal Tap-like way. This becomes even more glaring when you compare them to bands like Celtic Frost or Bathory. But doing so is unfair, because those aren't really their contemporaries. Venom came out of Britain at the same time as NWOBHM bands like Saxon, who were visually and theatrically every bit as ridiculous as Venom, if not moreso. Compare Venom to those bands, and they're actually notably less bloated and more raw.

I wonder if RATM got their sound from this band:

I'm not really a fan of the track you posted, but as has been said, industrial metal is probably the closest thing. Another genre to consider is digital hardcore, which is basically a cross between hardcore punk and breakbeat/rave:

His past work contributes to the interest in his work too, but doing a project called Abbath at least appears to be a vanity project, and I think a vanity project can be a hard sell if people aren't interested in the person behind it. It's obviously less than ideal for people to follow something for such a superficial reason, but it stands to reason that the more interested people are in an artist, the more likely they are to follow what they do. The most obvious comparison might be the KISS solo albums - the cartoonish imagery of KISS is obviously made to appeal to a younger audience, but when I was 12 I thought Ace Frehley was pretty cool, so naturally his solo album is the one I checked out.

I prefer Immortal, but from a capitalistic standpoint I actually think making an Abbath album was a good idea, for the simple fact that Abbath himself is one of the most charismatic, instantly likable people in metal. It may not be nearly as good as Immortal, but it's something people are interested in hearing for the simple fact that they're interested in, and like Abbath as a figure.

Thoughts on bands like Deafheaven and Liturgy, and "hipster black metal" more generally? I personally don't like either of these bands, but I can respect what they're doing. Atmospheric black metal has such a unique and powerful sound that it almost seems inevitable that it would have an influence outside the metal world. One thing I think gives me a little more patience with these bands is that they're not entirely dissimilar from a band I love, Oathbreaker, which is basically an indie/hardcore/black metal fusion. Between Deafheaven and Liturgy, Deafheaven is the one I like less, but they're probably the stronger of the two. A lot of the time they sound like pretty straightforward black metal, but it's actually where they branch away from black metal that they lose me, with the sunnier parts and guitar noodling. I've heard some people say they're a screamo band, but that claim is patently absurd - their sound is much more black metal, and they barely resemble screamo in any way. Frankly, Liturgy is pretty clearly black metal made for an indie audience. They have all these electronic and weird, but not particularly intense noise elements that sound geared for Pitchfork-type bands and audiences. That said, I do find them the more interesting and compelling of the two, even though they miss way more often than Deafheaven. Every once in a while they hit on something interesting. Overall, I don't think I'm going to spend any more time on these bands, but it is interesting how atmospheric black metal is starting to branch out in different directions.

Limbs is a great opener.

Just to follow up, despite all my BS criticisms about the overly glossy production, I've been listening to this album constantly lately. Those solos still make me feel a little funny, but I love this record.

Orion (Behemoth), Charles Mingus, Paul Simonon (The Clash), John Entwistle (The Who), Lemmy, Joe Lally (Fugazi), Mike Watt (Minutemen), Robert Trujillo (Suicidal Tendencies/Metallica) I don't like RHCP or Korn, but damn they have great bassists

For sure... Crust Punk: Tragedy, Sarabante Folk Punk: Days N Daze, Rail Yard Ghosts Pop Punk: The Menzingers, PUP Post-Hardcore: Planes Mistaken for Stars, Touché Amoré, Have Heart, Cerce

Let's have a thread for newer punk bands. Punk bands still put on some of the best live shows. What bands do you like?

I pretty much despise this genre, except for Twisted Sister. Dee Snider is awesome. WASP are kinda fun, too, as are Hanoi Rocks and Mother Love Bone. And I have to admit, Mark Slaughter has a great voice... I just wish he was involved in a different genre. If you want to see something cringingly hilarious, check out the hair metal periods of Celtic Frost, TSOL, Discharge, and Pantera.

The band Despise You is decent. I think it might be helpful to approach the genre from more of a hardcore angle than a metal one - it's been said that powerviolence is to punk what gangsta rap is to hip-hop - basically an intense, gritty, realist take to the whole thing. The early powerviolence bands were basically made up of poor Californians. To be honest, I don't like most of the genre. To me a lot of it sounds like a less experimental, less intelligent, and more thuggish version of grindcore. However, I do like a fusion genre called emoviolence, which is a combination of screamo and powerviolence. Orchid is the buzz band of the genre, but to me the best band in the entire movement is Ampere. However, bands like this are pretty much all punk, with only vague hints of metal: And yes, I realize the last post is from over a year ago.

I've been getting really into bebop. Some favorites: Charles Mingus - Let My Children Hear Music, Blues & Roots Wayne Shorter - Juju, Speak No Evil Pete La Roca - Basra Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder Art Blakey - Moanin'

This program's of mixed quality, and there are some cringe moments, but they do fun videos where they discuss the key bands of different genres: That said, I really can't stand most of this genre. When it comes to metal, I usually prefer it raw. I do like some lush bands, but I usually prefer that lushness to come from big, distorted guitars or atmospherics.

So, what's the general consensus on Oathbreaker? How do you feel about them?

I think the thing that might make this less comfortable, though, is that the symphonic black metal of those bands is such a different animal from the underground black metal sound. Of course, even among the tougher black metal bands, Behemoth is far from the first to use clean, slick production, Rotting Christ again coming to mind as a good example.

I've been really enjoying Hypocrisy. Is anyone else into this band? It's pretty cool, melodic, wicked-sounding stuff. In terms of feeling, it's almost a little punky, though clearly a Swedish death metal band.

I also feel strange about Nergal's celebrity, but in a way it makes sense. Metal is one of the most international genres, and Anglophone countries like the US and UK don't have the near monopoly on the metal market like they do in, say, alternative rock (there are of course lots of exceptions, but speaking for the majority). Polish pop music doesn't seem to have any international reach. Because of this, I wouldn't be surprised if Behemoth is Poland's most internationally successful music act, or at least one of them. So because of black metal's international appeal, Nergal was elevated to possibly Poland's biggest rock star. It's a little weird, I know, but I could see the same thing happening to Rotting Christ in Greece. I'm sure if it weren't for Nergal, I never would've heard of Voice of Poland. That said, I've watched clips of Nergal cleaned up like an American idol judge, guitar soloing next to pop singers, and the whole thing makes me cringe really hard. His appearance on such an awful show and his tabloid relationship with a pop star add some strange background when listening to an album with drums that sound straight out of 80s pop rock. Honestly, I really like this album. The more I listen to it, the more I like it. But as I listen to it more, the criticisms of it become clearer and clearer, like the ones pointed out in this thread (i.e. the slick production). The "Hollywood black metal" comparison is an interesting one. I guess this all raises one question I doubt anyone previously saw coming: what does going mainstream mean for blackened death metal?

I have to go with Motörhead, pretty much without hesitation. I do think Judas Priest probably had more imagination. Rob Halford has an incredible voice, and the Judas Priest dual lead guitars were pivotal for metal, especially in power metal. That said, for me personally Motörhead is one of the most empowering bands. They have this no bullshit, take no prisoners energy. The musicians that have been in Motörhead are great as well - the Fast Eddie / Philthy Phil line up is legendary. As far as albums go, Judas Priest never released anything that comes close to Overkill for me. The other thing is, although I do like power metal (point for Priest), everything I like in extreme metal goes back to Motörhead. In fact, everything I like in harder edged punk and rock music goes back to Motörhead as well. Without them, everything from Bathory to Amebix would've been unthinkable.

What's your opinion on Gojira?

What's your opinion on this album? I've really been enjoying it, but opinions seem split. On its fastest, thrashiest tracks it's really good and empowering, in an almost Motörhead-like way. The vocals are fantastic and heavy, and parts of the album are absolutely pummeling. The backstory with Nergal's struggle with cancer is also really interesting. That said, it does feel somewhat light weight and bright, especially for a blackened death metal album. It lacks the dark atmosphere of black metal, and again it's a little light, at least in tone, for death metal. There are also a couple bluesy hard rock solos that feel sort of goofy in the mix.

tbh, I almost wish Burzum wasn't as good as it is. My father's family is Jewish, and some of my extended family was apparently exterminated during the holocaust. I spent almost 3 years working in West Africa, and the people I worked with there mean a lot to me. Varg stands for pretty much everything I'm against. I'm not against his anti-Christian/Odinist stance. If anything, I sort of agree with it. He sees Christianity almost the same way many people see colonialism, as something that had negative effects on Northern European culture. The Roman Empire certainly seems to have distorted Christianity from a "religion of the poor" to an authoritarian control mechanism, and unfortunately that imperialist distortion is still the version of Christianity that's most popular around the world. Nature-based religions, including European forms of paganism, do seem somehow psychologically healthier, if only because they don't promote internal guilt and they emphasize life rather than death/the promise of an afterlife. That said, the churches he and his friends burned down were historical landmarks, so I disagree with him destroying them. Varg is a white supremacist, and this appears to have intensified during his time in prison. He seems to have a strange, Tolkien-infuenced way of looking at race and culture. His writings are filled with nasty racial epithets against just about anyone non-white. He's really gone off the deep end with all this, and in his YouTube videos you can see how he's progressed to a doomsday survivalist. He seems to have a childish, moronic, fantasy-inspired worldview, and it makes me think his time in prison stunted his emotional development. Some people have said that we should ignore him and stop empowering such a racist, but this ignores how great those early Burzum records are. They're some of the best, most powerful records ever made in extreme metal. They're beautiful, depressing, and melancholy. They seem to effortlessly achieve what so many bands desperately try and fail to do. I speculate that the entire "blackgaze" genre owes a lot to early Burzum.

You're right that the guitar work in Megadeth is a major focus, and they're often considered the most technical of the big 4 of thrash. That said, when people think of Megadeth, it seems like they think of it as "Dave Mustaine's band," as if the two are almost synonymous. The thing that makes me see Metallica as the superior band is the range and diversity of their music, and their influence. Like a lot of people, Metallica completely lost me with the Black Album. But they kept moving forward and being relevant, and even before that they had diverse, ambitious albums that were massively influential - I'm surprised how often I hear Ride the Lighting come up when bands talk about influences. Again, I prefer Megadeth, but I find that their development wasn't quite as successful. When I think of Megadeth, I just want to hear those early albums like Peace Sells, and I'm expecting that aggressive guitar noodling, Mustaine's growl, and pessimistic, socially critical subject matter. For my personal taste, Metallica never came up with anything that matched that dynamic with me, but to me Megadeth was that dynamic. When they moved on and changed their sound, they always sounded more bland to me. I never wanted to hear Mustaine learn to sing with cleaner vocals, and I never wanted them to get big budget production and almost proggy theatrical ideas.